Lec 8 Community-Owned Enterprise and Civic Participation

so um today's session is on sustaining group-based businesses and our our question to kind of get things started today is in your opinion what's the role of group-based businesses um Group B group-based business development in the work we do for economic political and social justice how does this connect with the larger mission of creating a more just Society because before we talk about sustaining these businesses it's like why do we want them in the first place why are we why are we doing that anybody have some ideas that well I think we're very constrained by the corporations that in our country around the world and we can't you know and even foundations that f social justice work and so we have to figure out ways to raise money and support our own work and find alternative models of Business Development and switch things up why why else are we interested in I think of some of the conversation that we had last night and it's very much sounded like like some of the work of developing the members of Cooperative or trying to help people think about how to run their own organization and do it together it seems like a lot of that cuts parallels the work that say people who think about social organizing or Collective actions it's seem parallel the kind of work they do so it seems to me not to say that would be a tool but if you're if you have you're sort of getting people accustomed to working together at that level that they that transfer for larger goals that tied into and economic social justice other thoughts because I mean if that was our goal it would be more effective for us just to teach people to become um more active in in Civic life why put my comment got have y and can we say more about economic empowerment yeah somebody [Music] else the camera is rolling please remember that at every moment today well I think think the idea there is that you have you folks are not necessarily dependent on say being fored by a by fund donations or contributions to other entity that you have the means to generate your own wealth which in this country is way that decisions are made based on how want to obviously is important but in many ways being able to time to so as our um as our political system moves more to$ one do one vote rather than one person one vote it's good to have some dollars and and maybe these group-based businesses can help people get some dollars um any other thoughts because if I mean if we're going to try to build these things and sustain them it's like maybe there's some better ways to get dollars maybe we could do job development programs you know and help people get better jobs I mean is what's so what's so important about group-based businesses they're complicated takes a long time to get them started the particip participation in planning and development is you know it's a lot more expensive in terms of time and resources than just having entrepreneurs start businesses so you know why why do we want these group-based businesses it what's the what's the value CU if we just want money and if we just want people participating in um political office maybe this is too much work for that there's also OPP individual development that yes you can get at in different ways but given the amount value that we do place on Capital formation or having somehow having the two tied is compell it in a way that just having a job training or just having people have a way to earn money but still work for get against we we um I want to do introductions and before we do introductions I want to give you each a minute to think for yourself about why you might get up in the morning to actually work on a group-based business what personally would be motivating to you um and how how what why you think it would make a difference why it would matter and then let's just go around and you feel free to pass and just say who you are but why don't we just um take a stab and giveing people a minute just to think about it what why are you here you know learning about this why why does it matter why don't we uh start with someone that hasn't spoken yet let's let's give them a minute just so they can think do you need a minute or can we just go around we could have a lot of passing going on too why don't we start over over with um Gentleman on our [Laughter] right what why does um why why would I what's the role of this why is it why is it important to start group- based businesses well I I think uh in a democracy your freedom of speech and political action is closely tied to ownership of property at least in American democracy and I think uh having businesses that are Community owned or cooperatively owned provides or potentially provides revenues that poor people in particular need or marginalized people need to have a voice in democracy uh so that's one reason very much in favor of of forming as opposed to nonprofits which you do have restrictions on if you form a nonprofit organization there restrictions on your voice um if you own your own business um you don't that's um potentially I down the road I think there are a lot of opportunities to uh move to scale with Cooperative kinds of businesses and po I think there are chances of really getting large numbers of people committed to um cooperatives or businesses which they feel brings higher value to their neighborhoods um and I don't think most corporations have anything close to that potential people are pretty cynical about economics and about economic relationships and co-ops at least provide an opportunity to build a different kind of relation ship of people among people in the economy start back around that again that's what happens when you have to head at the table and and when you're such an accomplished actress you know you have to keep coming back over and over I guess for me just thinking back to your question probably a real motivation for me is I'm interested in how people so I way to says I'm really interested in how people learn what it is that they want to learn so they can achieve their own goals of life and I remember someone saying to me well yeah you could run a nonprofit and you could help train people to develop their own jobs but you'd be more effective if you were running a business but I'm not someone who's necessarily motivated by the thought of profit for myself the opportunity to work with other people is obviously hard and challenging to do it's something that engages me personally so I thinkk very much to your question that's part of what we get me up to do is the relationships and opportunities for learning with other people um what gets me up in the morning do potentially do a project like this I guess the thing that usually gets me up in the morning do social justice work is to be connected with people who are thinking in a new way about something who are pushing um both themselves and their own learning and some whether it's policy or agenda or framework so um um so I Jessica can we can we pull this chair out do you mind coming coming up for The Head of the Class over here Kim come on I have to leave oh you do yeah so I never wanted to work for a corporation and I never saw myself running my own business but I can see through this conversation that it kind of mixes social justice and organizing work with you know um a a business plan and I guess as a side note there's a lot of people in my family who have I think like skills and crafts and artists that could be supported in in this way I as some skills that were you know different so just as a side note I'm thinking not only my community but also my family way to support them in this using this model just did you I I think you might not have introduced yourself oh I'm sorry I'm PR I'm a master student in the planning department here thank you sorry to interrupt you all once you take your turn we'll we'll go back to k l uh Jerome and when I think about root based business development I think about it more in the context of what it takes to um to create um healthy communities and so when I think about group- based um Business Development like I have sort of one model um not related to group based business devel development which is sort of the normal model of business and what um what sort of relationships they have with communities and often they may have n at all um or the only thing they may be giving to a community is say maybe a minimum wage salary and so when I think about group based business development I think about a business that um is is an essential um part of the community that um supports the growth the development of um of of different relationships with communi um between the people and the business between the business and the community itself um that's something that's important I'm Dana losia and I'm a um law student at har Terri thing for today um I guess for me the role why I'm interested in cooperatives and GR business is because I think they might be able to lead to political involvement and political power so I'm interested in seeing how like democracy inside of work and like group self-determination inside of business can lead to political power I mean how it does that I guess might be the question that we're exploring and I'm not sure exactly but I think that um as skills and confidence and even as people gain property there's more motivation and more ability to take a political role Shing um I'm Michael Weisner and I'm a master student at Harvard uh in public policy um I think what I guess what motivates me and to be here and my interest in group based business I think um kind of interested in how it kind of balances a like a profit maximizing kind of motive and success in that way with a community-minded um approach and I think uh it's it's complicated how it might do that um that the Cooperative business still trying to be successful business um but very much with the philosophy of of supporting the community and supporting all all members maybe not just shareholders and and the CEO um so interested in that Dynamic um I also it's a for a lot of the same reasons people have said that it has a the kind of um potential to have a democratic structure in a in it may an area that doesn't usually have demographic structur it's usually not the workplace is not that and that it I think it therefore provides chance for uh empowerment in a way that's that mixes the economic empowerment that you're but it also mixes kind of a a Civic mindedness how do you are you kind of in control how are you shaping forces in your community that may otherwise seem not in your control you know Walmart's in a common it's inevitable how do you start to feel like you have some voice there um and I feel like to some extent group based businesses can can provide that and a step in that direction at least um so I think that's that's kind of what motivates me to be here uh my name is C am auditing this course I'm from CH and my English is not very well so I I will be shter H when I'm think I'm in group based business development I think in my country my the the problems of Chile and for of Latin American countries prry ER reducing pretry improving quality of life in a economic sense in a social sense but in a psychological sense too uh the empowerment of people is a very important goal I think in children sense it's very simple um I guess for me I think of um where the main arenas for struggle have been in social justice and they've been in the media they've been in the courts you know to some extent in this country they've been in streets at certain points but I think progressives don't take seriously the market as another place to struggle and um it seems to me that it's one of the biggest it has one of the biggest impacts on our lives of all you know sort of direct ongoing impact on our lives of all these other forces and so and so it's a really necessary place to struggle but also that it is a space in this current ideological clir that's more open than some of the other ones and so I really feel like so that's one thing we have to be there and then the other thing is being there um you know how are you there and I think group based businesses gives us a way of or give us a way of combining politics and economics more directly and um Ling back to the other question allow us to think about purchasing power and exercising what leverage we have in the market in a more Collective way and could you introduce yourself please sorry I'm Dana Cunningham um I I don't remember what else was part of the intruction anything else you want to say you want to people might be interested in another sentence or two okay I'm Dana I'm a civil rights lawyer by training I am now working um on project management of sort of social change type businesses Loosely and I'm married to both I'm Jessica Gordon nard uh I'm on the faculty at the University of Maryland I'm an economist actually I'm a political Economist and I actually do this for living figure this out and try to explain why and how and whatever so I could probably talk for hours so I'll try to figure out sort of three main things to contribute here um one I don't think you can have political democracy without economic democracy so I think it's extremely important that in the economic sphere we figure out ways uh to democratize Capital to to broaden ownership to increase uh income and asset ownership um and to figure out how to work together uh in in one of the main areas that we spend most of our time in so um I you have to have group- based ownership and uh some kind of expanded level of ownership um so as I said it helps to increase income give control over income give control over more kinds of assets potential for wealth creation in addition um leadership development understanding the power of teamwork and cooling of resources uh sometimes increased productivity uh and maybe even most important aning of capital so that Capital stays within the locality really producing it um and uh also I think it's a training ground for all the other kind of skills that we used in other aspects of their lives my name is shaku Jan I don't think there's much to add I think after this we've all hit so many of the the points I think just can wear from ah yes yes no um my name is KH Shah I am first year graduate student at Grand University and sustainable International Development um taking this Consortium um and my interest in uh group based Cooperative uh businesses is both person bit ideological personal in the sense you know that um I was born in Marvin City Louisiana uh just as the oil boom was on the decline which uh you know in the town was pretty much beted um from there I went to New Orleans where there was you know poverty for many different other Associated reasons uh you know very deep uh in persistent poverty um and you know just uh you know coming uh to school and just becoming more aware um in a in a global sense uh you know even with all P I realize that that the average American you know consumes about 16 times the uh non-renewable resources that the average that our average counterpart in India about 32 times the amount of resources that our average counterpart in Ethiopia will consume so for me I think uh I hope that the Cooperative movement The Cooperative form of Economics can be not just a way of bringing the poor in this country into middle class consumption Lifestyles but can actually transform the American economy to be a little bit more sustainable a lot more sustainable more effable in a global sense um that's pretty much it huh well I say a little bit I'm kind of post again I definitely don't have much to add's point but know was going to say similar I think um addressing um serious issues of poverty and that that um around those folks that I about people in my communities um um you know I I grew up as a as sh share proper from Mississippi been a steel worker in in Buffalo New York an activist trying to figure out ways of how to some degree of of a Prosperity return to Prosperity that places like Buffalo New York and that is now um um um you know a bankrupt city they're closing their libraries they're closing their schools they're um um you know closing the parks and how do we begin to show that that we can um um have a a a Sol solution to that and I think that's for me is one of the U I think one thing to add is that for me is if we can't begin to show people um you know Americans are very pragmatic folk I mean it's it's not you you can't make an argument just by saying theoretically this is true I think we have to begin to show folks that that we can make a difference in terms of what um of companies that we build that we show folks that uh that we set up a company that where the workers and management has a a positive relationship and where where the owners are are the members of the community and where um have a right relationship with uh the environment and and and with the uh larger community in the in the world how do we begin to show that in and some in action and I think um in based business developments that we can uh we can begin to do that and and extend then and provide a kinds of training and leadership development that spills over in in all aspects of of of of people's lives so when I became an activist uh fighting on the job uh uh it didn't stay on the job I had to you know it it it uh it went into all aspects of my life and and and uh you know if we can begin to continue to do that and and show folks that we can to build um that poor people can can stand up and and and and and be owners of uh of the the all the Assets in the capital and their communities and so uh this is I think a way to do that um um you know and one of the things we'll be talking about also is that um that it's a way to begin to generate resources uh that that not only the social capital in terms of the the SK developments and and the uh the energy and the power that that uh people pick up in the course of this but also in in the things we'll need uh that's open you know that uh when we set up uh and built a a uh U uh uh Cooperative in U uh in in um um on Crown Heights um that that was not only not only did we prove that we could uh set up uh bring uh nutritious foods and and and and fruits and vegetables and other things to that neighborhood but we a place where folks could meet it was a place where where uh where people could come together to talk about what what things that needed to be done and it it became a gathering point for for anything that happened in that in that uh in that neighborhood you know and it was something that we controlled it wasn't uh that depended on a a foundation Grant from a from a nonprofit you know made deis you're important one day and not and not important the next day that it came from the the resources of that particular community and showing that that they had the power to be able to to you know establish this uh set it up and then sustain it so and uh I'm Lyn band I picture tribal economics as being kind of on a flat plane you know where the the things stay picture Global um economic environment this steep slope where it's you have one business and it starts to root there and it's you know owned by a single proprietor it's got a little one root system and um the only thing that really can kind of help us hold on to the soil you know of our economic life is are these group-based businesses that are owned by a lot of people where they just can't pick up and go somewhere else so a whole Community can help one single entrepreneur develop a tremendous amount re Capital assets and that Entre single entrepreneur can at their choice at any moment pick up and go someplace else with all of the value that's been created in a group-based business it happens less it's it's much less likely so I think we need all many different kinds of um businesses in an economy make it work um but these group-based businesses I think serve a function just to to Really root assets and resources and learning capability for for people so that's that's why I do it I I want to see communities hold on they and keep circulating in for that sense of empowerment for that sense uh for the not just asking people for resources you've actually got your own and uh count more more in our culture what kinds of Financial Resources you have access to the reason that we put this up I just want to stand here for one second is um we we got into a conversation this morning um as we were today's class about all the people who we know who are working for economic itical and social justice who think that group-based business development might not be very radical might be even a little bit of a sellout you know that that um you know maybe there's a lot of other ways to work for social justice economic Justice political Justice it's not about business development if you're doing business development maybe maybe you're not even an activist anymore it's just about that have you that perspective why are you doing business development why aren't you not among young people yeah good and actually most of the uh veteran Community leaders that I know are really ready to hear a message about another way of doing the sense I get is not that people think it's a sell the sense I get is like people have the the mechanisms that are out here and things haven't changed and and so really get that from people I I get a lot of uh a lot of openness right now not a whole lot of judgment about people selling I haven't at least I don't come across that i' I've seen um I've seen a lot of these a lot of group-based businesses that are not about social political Justice that actually and so sometimes I talk to you know activists and um or labor union leaders or you know people in C and and they're looking and they're saying you know gez you know I I I know a bu of cooperatives that actually don't provide very quality good quality jobs for workers or I know another group of cooperatives that sucked up a whole lot of public assets and then went out of business I know a lot of other cooperatives that actually work against things that are good for the environment um you know in New York in New York the word Co-op is often associated with very wealthy people you know on the upper west side or upper east side I I mean I people a lot of folks don't associate it with like the low income limited Equity co-ops or people don't even know about that you know or REI something like that I me you do get that yeah cooperatives as a legal vehicle for discriminating on who's going to be able to live next door to you um you know theyve these group based don't necessarily work for economic political or social justice yeah also I've heard some people have actually worried that you can't have a business that's profitable without exploiting somebody so I've also heard that too so they're like well how can you use business uh as a non- exploitative tool just don't see it even if we're talking about workers owning their own business they still see that somewhere there's got to be some level of exportation or some in order to even get the Surplus so I've heard that too and the final thing I get a lot is uh that people think that uh you're privatizing the social justice grou and then we're taking the public sphere out of it and letting them off the hook yeah I think um a lot of uh of of activist um myself in my past included have U just been wey of you know the uh how do you say the um just the ability to address you know the issues that affect that affect us through the market um and and I think you know a lot things that that you know that you talked about are just you know the amount of businesses that fail or you know and and so often I think most people like myself for I was introduced to the idea of a Cooperative very late and so you know the only types of businesses that we saw were the so proprietorships and you know you know and like we talk about that especially amongst like you know the black nationalists would be so happy to have this you know this black store and the community what what's the difference you know what is he really doing for this community but you know get into this whole discussion but um but but yeah so so there's just this fear and this and this weariness about you know what you know can actually do and um and and and you know like you said you know you know economic R rationality suggests or dictates that you do certain things if if you're going to play in the market but you have to you know do certain things you have to treat the environment in a certain way you have to treat you know do this you have to you know always try to get that c to profit you know that's the you know the single bottom line you know um at the at the end of the day so yeah what's fascinating to me is I you know I support groups of people starting businesses and just like when I raise my children you know I raise my children I'm I'm hoping they go out and they're they do good things in the world I have no control over it and when I help start a group-based business I hope that it will make a contribution the world but I have no control over it because it's it's democratically run by MERS and so I believe in democ Ry and it's the best thing we've got but it's it's uh mighty mightily uh flawed and comes up with um you know bad conclusions often um but I I don't think there's another I don't think there's another option and and then I mean there's there's always a concern of you know once you start a business and and and even if you are successful in a business from a uh from a class-based analysis of society do you then join you know the social class supposed to be battling against for power you know in a sense you know and and you know how does your you know interest change you know you know your voting patterns change once you own a business and have this interest and want to keep this thing viable you know you know you don't want to support you know extra taxes to fund schools or you know to do these types of Social Services you know so you know you you don't want to raise the minimum wage you know if you're you know a business owner you know all these types of things come into place so you know it's it's it's very shaky but I think on the flip side um um you know especially uh in my time working with working in Alabama I think you know the practicality of it is that you know is that dealing with people's you know everyday needs and realities and you know trying to get you know Business Development you know job creation you know these types of things and especially dealing with small farmers you know these small farmers they have needs and so you know and just dealing with those things you know uh social justice um it's just the same time you know it's it's still a way to get political support you know in a sense if you're able to survive you know constructive opportunities for people to do things and and to better their lives in in the every day so there's there's a give and take either side there just just a couple other things I want to say and then kind of move into the next question but I think that often um it's it's easier to critique than to actually take a step to try to do something to to make something better it's easier to say those in power those wealth are doing the wrong thing than to step up and own power own wealth you know and and make it and make a difference because then You're vulnerable to critique and so I I think that that sometimes there's been a reluctance to actually get into the business of owning a business um if you're used to critiquing how management does things and then you own a business so well somebody's someone of us now has to manage you know it and so it's it's um Assumption of roles and and the um you know how how we share power how we move things forward I I think it's Sometimes It's Tricky ground um to become the the the one that you you know been saying isn't doing it well or to take on the in a more middle class or o even owning class role when you've been um without you know is is confusing and it's you know we have a lot of there's a lot of things to to sort through but I um it does catch us up a little bit but as we think about um once we build these business built these businesses and let's say let's say we've got a group of members that own it that actually have these values and and that's the key so if you've got members who care about social economic uh political Justice they're going to run their business with those values if you've got people who don't care about about them who democratically own and control their business guess what they won't be working toward those things so how if you start with a group of people who care about those who's who have that as their core value how do you sustain a business to keep focused on those things as they maybe accumulate more wealth themselves you know as so as the people change as the environment changes how how do you one sustain the business as a business and two um how do you sustain those core values and I think that's what that's kind of the core question today do you want to yeah one of the we we one U from what we've been um uh learned so far it speaks to some things that we need to be doing internally and things that we need to be doing externally in order to try to set the best possible conditions for being able to establish a a a group- based business that that is U plays an effective role in supporting a larger movement and then even more importantly to be able to sustain it uh um the most important thing as we talked about we began to talk about yesterday uh was is the question of member participation um and that I mean of really keeping a focus that businesses are are run um are for are run by and for and and and and in every aspect of of of of the membership it's not a you know in a in a in a board a regular board or or a um a proprietorship or um or a nonprofit you know the focus a lot of times is on that that board and you know and put that board together and it has almost you know it has major power within it uh our focus is how to involve the members in every single aspect of the organization from uh from top to bottom uh uh from the from the very Beginnings from it it's its uh planning to till this launch to it's um it's day-to-day operations uh how do we begin to make that happen and the other things we're going to touch on today are the key internal systems that suain these businesses are effective board governance outcome measurement participatory evaluation and planning and getting an outside audit um that's by the board so the board you know so that the members have access to real information about the financial condition of their business so when we talking about uh support systems that we need to set up Education and Training resources for members you know the broadest possible Education and Training with members for youth the boards the community the managers the developers any the entire those folks that are uh uh daytoday you know Hands-On doing the work and then the broader support systems that you know we don't leave out the community we don't leave out of the young folk that will be U you know stepping up to to replace us you know that that all of those has to be taken in that that there's technical assistance for Effective organizing and and Business Development this is difficult work I mean so we have to look at all kinds of you know from U Financial uh uh kinds of expertise legal kinds of expertise of uh uh uh business planning kinds of expertise of in IND you know spe knowledge that we may have need to have uh you know depending on what we're putting together um and and so we need to be able to set up to to access technical assistance networking and learning opportunities for for leaders that these are large issues and that and leaders can't um u u attack these problems in isolation and that's so often a tendency in the groups that function in our own particular Silo and not you know and not to stray out we have to U look at this as a as a larger movement that we build and so we need to be supporting each other learning from each other uh and uh and providing opportunity for for uh serious leadership development patient Capital that that it it's uh this requires U uh um financial support and it requires financial support that that can U support us through I mean that you know as as we're moving along you know trying to hit a profitable is doesn't happen overnight um and so trying to figure out the ways that support systems for patient capital is U is a particularly important problem political support uh um all types of uh from um um um being able to to to uh to acquire some of that patient capital and other kinds of things being able to to to have the support for for zoning and and and um and other kinds of and and and other kinds of um exemption U um you know yesterday talk IRS dilemas that we have in terms of the various types of uh uh uh uh structures that we choose uh you know so being able to have the kind of political support so we can set the best possible ground for for for uh for being able to build effective uh group-based businesses and then even uh particularly important is that we have to raise and honor and organizing member ownership management business operations and business models you know on that thing of that we have to learn from each other and that we have to um set up a an effective system where we where we can spread uh best practices and and be able to uh um uh you know replicate them and as quickly as we possibly can and so today we're talking about the internal structures within a business that help to sustain it and then these external support systems that are really needed in order to help this help these businesses stay focused on the larger Mission and be successful have their profitable so that they can continue and um often in our work we're doing we're developing one group based business here and another one here and another one here and maybe they go to a me where they find their businesses that are like theirs and share information not um and so they're isolated they're left on their their own they um you know might do some Education and Training they might Orient new members when they come in but this but the story is if you've got a business that's bringing a lot of new members in without any orientation um they lose sight of what they're doing management takes over um because the members aren't paying attention was once focused strongly by its Founders over here kind of over time gets more focused on the bottom line and making more money off of the members rather than getting money back to the members and you know goes off and the the most wonderful thing about a Cooperative is anytime the members decide that they want it to be different they can put it back up there and so there's a there's a um an an a Rural Electric Cooperative in Vermont that did that had this happen you know in the 60s it it got founded and electrified a big portion of of and they were so proud and these Farm families had electricity for the and and then over time management took over they started investing in all the things that the rural electric CS invest in nuclear power you know they were purchasing a lot of things and the members didn't like it particularly but you know they just kept going and then the members woke up and said we don't want this this isn't us they took over they had at the membership meeting they voted out all the board they fired the manager they put all new people in they can't contracts with the nuclear power plants and you know took them a while but they had to go to court they you know and so the members reclaimed the original vision and mission of their operative but it it takes a lot of work to actually do that intervention it's actually less energy to keep it going over time but without this these exor support systems it's it's highly likely that the business will devolve into something that's more management driven and more more single bottom line driven rather than multiple bottom lines of me benefits back to members as well as keeping a profitable business going so we we talked about member participation so the next I think summarizes yeah and as um was com from a a study actually a set of studies that have been done looking at what what actually makes membership meaningful of to folks and and group-based businesses and these were some of the the key things that that came out of focus on member need fair prices Democratic ownership rooted in the communities keeping the dollars in the community redistributing their wealth focusing on values and principles um U trusted source of information that these are the things that that that folks said that that's what they looking for and and and and uh and that's why they felt that that that uh Cooperative or that group-based business was important to them uh and so really really F having the members identify which of those things is most important to them and having the business focus on doing those things ever ever better um is what makes build member participation because they're asking for something and they're getting it back and often I mean we're doing a study right now I'm in um um for the national Cooperative Bank um talking about U um marketing a Cooperative advantage and and a number of u u cooperatives many of them will not do that I mean and so we're trying to begin to show that that there actually is a good reason this Democratic ownership or the community is is something that that keeps people connected with it and as we're going out and talking to uh cooperatives large and small we're we're coming up with real data that shows that that this this works I mean we see that all every day on TV uh um you know I mean uh uh major Global corporations making absurd claims you know uh uh energy um oil companies talking about all what they do do do for the environment you know and and using that as their as their main selling point not they're not talking about uh you know shell and and why it's good for your car they're talking about that shell makes a difference uh you know for the environment and and the shame of it is is that there's so many group based businesses that haven't learned that U we have a a a real U uh argument that we can make that we bring something uh to the table that other companies don't and we're not making use of it and this can be the difference and that even if your price is you may not have the the lowest prices uh you may not uh have a uh uh the same degree of uh uh you know a bank or financial institution where there's a u there's an ATM on every corner that for you to go to but but being able to show that that those dollars in the community that you're that that is democratically owned and control worth um making that extra step and and going a little bit and uh not necessarily having the fair the lowest prices so so part of it is is uh understanding what makes the members uh uh what they care about and one thing uh and as we talk mentioned yesterday that uh making you know uh having a a u a a system rooted in the organization where you're constantly getting that information uh uh in in all kinds of ways from surveys to to uh U uh to groups to using your online uh online communities to to uh uh uh uh discussions and meetings uh you know to but constantly going back to and finding out what's what's working for you what's not working for you and how can we and how can we make uh this group-based business uh serve your needs in a in a group- based business you've got members who elect a board of directors in small group-based businesses sometimes you have the members be the board but often they repres they elect a board to represent them and then that um board hires a manager and again you can have some different structures but this is traditional and then the manager hires staff and the staff serve the community and the communities are the members who've elected the board so this is really a circle of power that gets passed on it works really well as long as nobody's holding power if it's flowing so if the members are really delegating to the board um and it's really clear what decisions members are making what decisions the board's going to make the members might only meet once a year so in between those meetings it's the board that's going to be carrying things if the members want to meet once a month then the board only carries in between the member meetings but as long as it's really clear what decisions have to come back to the members and they're happy with that and they you know they know everything else is they've said the board you take over and the board then in the same way is not at this group-based business 40 hours a week or 60 hours or 80 hours a week um you know it's only there maybe meeting once a month or once a quarter and in between it's clearly delegating to the manager this is these are the decisions you can make here's the power and authority you can exercise but if any of these conditions happen a b CDE e f then you have to come back to us and so it's really clear you've outlined what those things are that have to go back to the board and what have to go back to members so that the power is moving through and people are free to act and accomplish the mission of the organization nobody's holding power and things aren't getting tied up somewhere so as you said that you know there needs to be a strong board development plan that constantly keeps the focus on member leadership that that has a clear understanding what is the role of the members and Community leadership in in a group-based business uh um it it can vary dramatically depending on what type of uh business you're you're building and um and what the the the perspective is of of those or those uh leaders who's needed on the board how do we recruit them uh the or orientation process for the board members as we talked about uh yesterday that has to be a constant uh process um bringing folks onto a board and and just dumping in there like the sink and swim kind of uh or Swim kind uh kind of scenario is not a way to to BU to build strong uh board leadership that there has to be an orientation system there has to be an education and training system that uh that constantly is developing new board members and new uh uh and and new uh um and strong members active in all aspects of the organization and said and and making sure that that that you know said that relationship between the board and the manager how do you make sure that that um you know in so many different groups from a food u u uh Co-op to a to a uh uh to a credit union to you know to Energy company I mean so often managers and and and and some degrees sections of boards um you know become uh the owners of the of the company how do we make sure that that doesn't happen how does it become how do we make sure that the members keep control on a daily basis and and part of that I mean we you know it comes down to governance management and member me member participation like I said um um so that that we set up a way that that there uh uh uh that that that governance and that management is is about uh um the uh um you know that that uh uh uh that it it's clearly about the key policy decisions of the of the organization and you know and allowing for um me that members through have Set uh set the the general uh mission and vision for the organization the board you know comes up with effective policies to be able to to to to to govern the development in the organization and then and then the manager and the staff helps to uh uh to implement that policy with the oversight of of that board and and and then membership at annual meetings and other things so for for groups to kind of manage their B for for groups of people to own and control a business together it can't just be done kind of off the hip you can't just have members show up at a meeting be entertained well by the manager and the board chair and eat some really good food and see some old friends and go home and have them feel like have them in any real real way owning and controlling that business in the same way you can't have the board of directors show up once a month to a board meeting again have some good food say hello to people you know have the manager talk and tell them anything that they want to and say thank you very much manager you've done a a very good job or randomly ask whatever question comes to the top of their mind when they're sitting there in the board meeting you know which is how a lot of board meetings are run um there's no setting goals measuring to goals letting people know how effectively the goals are being met if if that doesn't happen if that planning process doesn't happen and really consistent follow-through on measuring whether or not we're accomplishing those and then letting people know what the results of that measurement are the group will not own and control that business it'll be the most involved the most metalsome the most you know whatever it is but it won't be the group in a democratic form you have to clarify roles and responsibilities set your measures for accountability and then hold that accountability and that's how groups control and own businesses together you give an example of of those Co-op defines the things that have to go to the members or things that have to go the board like these there a good example of Co-op that these are things that members have to decide yes in most bylaws it'll say these are the decisions that have to come back and that's a really good place to put those decisions so if you're going to close the business we're going to open a new line of business we're going to it's it's whatever the members want whatever they don't want to read about in the newsletter is having happened those things have to be listed there um so things that and usually it's just the it's that very very very top line of things that are in the bylaws and then the board the board makes the other the board makes another set of decisions and then anything that they haven't decided is delegated to management to make so when um last time I was here I I handed out the um examp from the biodiesel company maybe I'll show it to you again because it's um it's the same that's how this um that's how this cooperative and again I I need to get I need to collect these back but this is an example of the um decisions that the I think we'll have to share maybe two or three these are the in example of the decisions that the um the members adopted a set of criteria for the business they have like eight criteria that the that um they guidance they gave to the board then the board said um these are all the decisions the the first page has a lot of x's and then um on the next page it said oh I'm sorry the first page is what the CEO is deciding and on the next page it starts there's some things that the board said it was going to decide but having this level of clarity about who's deciding what meant that the manager could actually go make some decisions and the board gave guidance about all those decisions there's you know the end results are all really clearly defined um and uh the things that can't happen are all really clearly defined in the board policies so the manager manager is constrained by all those things um but then he he knows what he can do happens to be a he in this particular case is that is that a is this useful to look at that again but in my in my opinion having very very specific structures written down like this is what helps groups retain ownership it would be very easy for this particular group for example to lose ownership of that business because there's a tremendously experienced manager who could come in and just do it and it's a community group who doesn't know how to make biodiesel you know it' be very easy for the for the manager to just kind of assume it yes can you talk a little bit about um thank you how the Democratic Leadership of these group based businesses the need for certain clear measures of business performance and we talked about the need to honor and uphold those but it just seems I I guess it's it's interesting to compare I just read last week about Carly fen's downfall right and there was a lot of stuff about the measures the board put in front of her so there's clearly in the business World there is a lot of oversight both from Wall Street and from investors and from shareholders um but they're not or they're all organized around one single goal which is profitability and here we're talking about being organized am along you know many goals and so just a little bit on how you know what the how things mesh and how co-ops can continue to per in what is at the end of the day still a business environment given those different measures I'll keep going with this case study just because it's it's it's easier to answer in specific but for this particular for this biodiesel production facility we have very specific financial goals laid out in the business plan and there's goals that are laid out here in this management report created with the manager you know between the manager and the board and you know here's what we think we can do here's what we want um so the manager have having the voice of kind of practicality saying you know I really I I hear that you'd like to have this much money for public education around um renewable fuels we we're not going to be able to generate that until 2006 you know can't do that in 2005 and the board says okay that's all that's our this public education component is a very high priority for us so we want it's written in in 2006 so there's there's the business performance financial performance goals but there's also the the the other bottom line goals in terms of member educating member education and orientation and public education um that are and um there's also issues about um the whole production uh the impact on the environment of producing biodiesel that the board cares a lot about and if we were only looking at profitability you know we're adding in some other measures on this business that if we were just a traditional wall stre business we wouldn't have um but the manager is actually are it will be to the strength of this business bottom lines and in a few minutes I'm going to show some business results from um group based businesses that are addressing multiple bottom lines and 85% of the businesses that are that we've been who are marketing their Cooper advantage and considering that to be a key8 said they are successful business because multiple bottom lines they are doing everything they can you know to to Really um be all of those things that they want to be accomplish all the bottom lines in their mission and it is because of that that their business is more successful than other businesses in their industry um yes yeah you may be getting to this but also sometimes um participation save money in other areas you actually get higher productivity sometimes you sick time and Shing and those kind of things actually get better ideas when even you have a team man or your managed by committee so that you also say you know sweat X was going into the even one of the things they said was they were able to actually pay living to garment workers in Los Angeles because the mere fact of having an employee owned company got rid of a middleman and rid of the transportation cost from Mexico because we juggle a lot of the cost and we reorient them to other places so you're not actually not in the business just doing it in different way good so here's a little summary of what effective boarders do they uh link to their members they enact policies a sure performance really they don't make policies that they're not going to check if they're being followed so they're they're figuring out how they're going to measure then U measuring it and then dreaming the future looking ahead that's really the board's most important well linking to members is most possibility and then using that relationship they have with members to Fig forward um but you have to do the policies and measure performance on policies in order to carry out the fiduciary responsibil the board has to to oversee management I don't want all managing that Co-op they want them whoever's man and really spending their time doing it's accomplishing the bigger Mission I think probably and that too yeah so so this next part is um we're we're talking about needing to measure the outcomes of the business and um every business needs to figure out what it is what those outcomes are Define them out and build that information into a very Dynamic planning process yeah for you um uh a report in the United Kingdom and this report is there they send out to everybody saying here's what we said we how we're doing I think it is the group-based business act what world about how they did it and so here that's from theide front cover they say can an or in a socially and environmentally responsible manner consistently profitable which just the question we just had on the table and in fact we believe that in the years to come the only truly Su buses will be those that achieve a sustainable balance between their own interests and those of the natural world and uh they've gotten awards from the UN and uh from Tomorrow magazine that tomorrow magazine said that this report was the world's most significant corporate publication so anyway it's a good best practice to share with you this is who they Define their their Partners to be they're saying how the things they're doing will affect allers their customers their staff and the families of their staff their suppliers their local community the national and international Society getting to where khil launched us off a little while ago and past and future generations of Cooperators that's a pretty broad place to be setting your business down and then what I did was I I just zerox and pages and I can pass this around um the uh and I just pulled a few pages to give you an example and you can see they've the the first page is you know they want to be delivering value so they've got they give a report on how their profits before taxation have increased how their operating income has increased how their income to cost ratio is is declining so they're becoming larger more it's the fastest growing Bank in the in England um here's another page where they talk about our service quality of service um increasing on almost every measure yeah like decrease in Banks closing that's different that's don't see that here you know I mean the quality of service I mean uh and u how people customer sating the outlet is convenient and the access their accounts all those things and then um I skipped ahead a little bit and there's a whole page on on their relationship with their employees on um percent of Staff saying that the bank salary package is very very good to quite good um saying that their benefits are good saying that they understand the mission and core values very well actually there's a little decrease in that one um and percentage of Staff saying that the opportunities for skill development and training are very good or quite good they went from 62% to 65% that might not be good enough for me as a member but I know what it is and I can watch it increasing or decreasing when I get this report um on their uh social justice agenda um they said this is where we're investing money we've at talked to all of our members and this is where they don't want they want to make sure we're not putting money in we're not putting money into places that violate human rights that are connected to Armament sales that um uh they want to support trade and social involvement um they want to um look at the ecological impact of their Investments animal welfare and customer consultation are all issues on their social agenda and there's more in the report on that go ahead um then they've got an ecological agenda where they clearly Define the goals for this business and they're measuring the impact the bottom you can see their um kilowatt consumption uh let's see their fossil no go back their fossil fuel consumption is the dark green and it has decreased so their renewable fuel consumption has increased okay did you say what that means um that their customers who's this is the bank the bank is using more renewable energy and less fossil fuels and here other businesses or Technologies yeah other renewable energy businesses um here they're they're tracking how much um net carbon dioxide emissions their net carbon um per customer account their water consumption at the bank in metered site so they're looking at all of their um use of natural resources and uh this was the last one I pulled out um this is they're looking at how um how far their staff have to travel to come to work in order to minimize that so anyway here's a here's a business that has put a tremendous amount of time into saying what's important to us collecting the data and then putting it together in a report that their members and all of their stakeholder groups can have access to in order to guide and control this business and it's a profitable bank I mean now think I mean if we can do if that can if a bank can do that why can't we do that when we're building whether it's a food Cooperative or Urban agricultural Farm or a housing Cooperative of uh you know or an energy company why can't we also have those same degree of uh you know as we talked about before a social audit that looks at all the different things we do including how democracy is is carried out in in our organization so and it's expensive and it takes time to develop those systems and that's something that that larger infastructure for supporting these group-based businesses really needs to help with to make that happen but the the businesses themselves need to be committed to it and members need to understand why does they want that data and they need to ask for that data till they get it um the this is what the to continue the case study the biodiesel Co-op has defined these things we have a system for um collecting some data um about these so the mission is to manufacture market and distribute fuels from renewable resources uning using sustainable practices while providing local economic benefit and shareholder value um and uh the they they want to see high quality products and services that customers have a fair price and confidence in the reliability and environmentally sustainability environmental sustainability of the products go ahead um they want to have a plant that increases the community's capacity for Knowledge and Skills recirculating money loc locally they want to provide living wage jobs they want to reduce and eliminate negative environmental impact from the manufacturing process on the community and on the environment and um the primary market area is going to be this area so these are the things the first Year's report back to the members is going to give a report on how well this business has accomplished that and in this way the 1400 people that started this business will be able to know whether or not their business is accomplishing what it is that they they were hoping at the beginning oh let's keep going um so back back to the external systems that we were talking about we just finished this these are the internal things that a cop can do or a other group based business can do um and it's the Gus and Shakur and I have spent a lot of time talking about what are those external support systems that will really um help and I I would oh thank you and I would I would say that right now these support systems are spotty in every in every case and when we look at mandron which is a cop development um system in Spain they've been able to build in a lot of of the pieces of this and and it is I believe it's because of that system they have for not only developing new businesses but supporting the existing businesses I think that is why theyve been so successful and we're looking at at how we can put the pieces that already exist um together and and build some new supports here in this country for doing this work I don't know if any of you want to talk about more about any of those can I ask question yeah um we had a discussion about maana here in this class and a number of the students felt like Maan was successful because it's a it's a ethnic tightly nit ethnic Community with a long history of collective struggle and that kind of facilitated you know their interest in forming ethnically Associated businesses you know basically boss speaking businesses um so someone to ask you about that but I have a non-empirical theory that um that African-Americans and Puerto Ricans precisely because they were dominated in control um like a CO like a colony you you really don't have a developed business sort of tradition or a strong one within the community um it's like an arrested one um within the community and how do and I'm not sure about the boss my sense is that maybe that's not as true I don't know but my question is when you're trying to work in neighborhoods without that strong sort of you know tradition um how do you propose to do co-op development and you know really get people owning and controlling and you know participating in these businesses how do you see doing that um like rapid I mean how do you how do you what kind of special things do you have to think about or build into your model when working in in C in neighborhoods without this when I say it's empirical I mean if you look at New York in the Dominican Community you see businesses everywhere if you look in Puerto Rican neighborhoods you see very few and most of the businesses businesses that were on you know folks were in business on the island they didn't just get started when they got here you know so it's like different so um what do you do I think the strong entrepreneural area that we ever seen for people color was was Durham North Carolina years AG before the programs of the 50 that brought on sense of welfare I mean you know the insurance companies and and everything else that thrived in in dur North Carolina one thing or if you go back to that town that was a part of in Florida before they was burned out by people by asking all the blocks to go over to a picnic and didn't burned out and I was working at must pal that was that was talk so and in fact these things were destroyed in the programs that followed perpetuated dependency didn't continue to instill the entrepreneurial kind of thing I would think that the boss don't necessarily Focus that much on the ethnic thing when I was at the world peace coun I was taking up into the past country and I mean I was treated just like you know it was very wonderful I think what people will tell you is that the Cooperative practices in Mand Define a culture of the whole place a whole lot of people who don't even think about it secondarily but because it benefits them both financially educationally and everything else it is the culture and it's political run through and whatever else we're dealing with a culture now of Fai throughout our Public School Systems and all kinds of other things there there there a lot of things that play that unless we get to something like this we're not going to be able to and and the truth is it is not just black and Puerto Rican a lot of whes are fall from the Cs and and this exclusive so I think this this is a movement whose time is here especially based on when you look at who's now head of the World Bank and AD yeah and U yeah say the same thing we saw you know I didn't see I Wasing born but um you know in New Orleans where you had CL Avenue right between you know the fourth War you know sixth War seventh war and people on that was about 2 and a half mile stretch of all these black VES they just built the highway through and and and just wipe it all out and uh and so and you know you have Broad Street uh uh dryads but I would also um with with those areas I would like to see some sort of like a study a comparison to to look at you know the similarities between uh you know what is currently called globalization and economic liberalization and and and integration and to look at integration here and and the effect of integration on these African-American you know ethnic businesses that were just unable to compete with the with these other white businesses that had much more access to Capital you know networks resources you know production supply lines and these types of things that they just couldn't compete with you know uh you know name brand recognition the value added of of that those types of things so IID like to see some sort of comparative you know study done you know to look at it from from those aspects as well yeah and so I think it does come down to a question of of of that's why we talked so much about the importance of Education and Training for for the members in the community and uh the the U uh the all the staff and board that that we have to we have to talk about creating a new culture and and I think we know that it's um mass changes in culture is possible I mean you know we grew up in a time when uh you know if you if you got called U anything if you got called black you you you know you smack somebody you know it it a a handful of folks got together in New York City and you know and and and began to start kicking around some other things and you know and a a cultural movement was was was was built I mean it's it's uh uh you know one person came up with the idea of of of kuanza and uh and and now uh you know with without without the power of Madison Avenue and wall and and and and and the power of media and stuff we now have quanas everywhere I mean it's it's possible that to have um um massive changes in in in culture we can begin to make that happen through our own training you know and again I think also the other issue of uh you know as Gus was saying uh unmet needs that that you know as uh that that um um as they're facing in in the Bosque region we have all over the place um among oppressed nationalities in this country and and also in rural areas and other yeah I also I I agree with Gus I think we have what I call a lost and hidden history of black entrepreneurship and cooperativism and uh lost I think that if you go back in history which I'm actually trying to study some of it you can see so many examples of efforts some successful some not but some very successful um that somehow we just haven't passed on or it's only passed on if like I'm talking to someone at a cocktail party then they're like oh yeah my parents were involved in a Cooper oh yeah my grandmother did such and such but yet we don't have it passed on as a group but the other thing is unfortunately the other problem that African amans have had is sabotage and discrimination we've had trouble doing business formation because we don't get the loans we've had trouble you know sustaining businesses and stuff because we get sabotaged um and I think that's the other problem is uh we remember more the history of sabotage and discrimination and less the history of empowerment and also I just one of thing is uh you know when you look a lot of the stuff that I'm I'm working on for example in in urban areas and a lot of you will be doing the same uh you go out there and you deal with young folk uh it's not like they ain't the entrepreneurism is is happening it's just not legal yeah they're selling something you know that we have to figure out how to change that product that that they're selling I mean but there's a lot of folk of of color a lot of oppressed people that are out there Selling Stuff trying to figure out how to create businesses to to to to to meet their needs but uh like I said they're in that illegal Market you know so I think we all recognize the approach to history in the United States is strange at best it hasn't documented things really happen because the more I think about your question there was much more block entrepreneurship than we were aware of you hit it on the button when these freeways came to and divided you know when I was on the advisory committee us Conference of Mayors I was going across the country doing a whole lot of study and Analysis and basically the story of this country is immediately following the second world war went through an era of deindustrialization I grew up in Rochester New York a city had a population of 350,000 home office of East Kodak Xerox and Bon L Kodak used to employ 880,000 people zerox 50,000 B 30,000 today Kodak employs 18,000 Xerox about 10,000 B Clos the population down to 2 20,000 immediately follow in that second world war this country did two things the federal government bu 41 million miles of federal freeway that dissected mostly the economic areas of the inner cities of this country and what you'll find is abtract poerty on one side and some influence on the other side then Johnson's program in the 60s supposedly to rebuild we started something called urban renewal now I always say what fol thought you could clear whole areas of land without a plan or financing and rebuilding always in the places where we live and so we just left desolate you know areas there and then they started online with what I call categorical programs model cities Community Action but model City built a lot of dense substandard housing getting complement with commercial and Retail no cultural enties no open space the kinds of things that give viability so it's failed public policy kill us history will never reflect that but the fact is we have to have a history of what was in order to understand what could be and with inside a lot of those places I know I grew up in Rochester New York but you go out to the outskirts the the rural areas where a lot of blacks living some who come up as Mar Farmers all kinds of co-ops and things you know and whatever else history has no sense of that and it's a shame when I think about it and we don't often think about until you bring up a question like that you or which you know quite well and you're looking in deeper but I mean it's where we got to go back to it's the only thing that's going to salvage us and Salvage this country and you can do that as a as a as a body I mean one of the things that we're talk we're trying to develop a project now um um using mugan and uh and and dynamic Community empowerment planning stuff u u uh uh techniques and principles that part of the process you know is to go back and talk to folk how did we get this way you know like one we do a little wall of Wonder thing that go up where we we talk where we have people in the community go up and draw you know so they talk put down there about uh you know when the when the when the when the when the the Bank closed uh you know and what was what year was that and what was the impact take those inst and categorize them look forward to give you a great picture of what c yeah and when when the hospital expanded you know into into that community and tore down the the business you know like in in in on the east side where I grew up in Buffalo uh Roswell Park U um you know it's it's an incredible institution now but what what way it got started in the early 60s it just bought up um large tracks of land and left it vacant for for for 10 15 20 years before they start some of them they just now beginning to to build on those properties and those were places where they had there were there were there was a that's where I used to go SK the skating ring it was where you know where we bought you know where we went and bought our french fries it was what that entire that's gone and you know and they and they left nothing you know and uh and you know Warehouse you know so that these kind of and when you have a conversation with folks as a you know talking about you know getting the think about those things so that then they can see how we got in this mess and then we can begin to start talking about where we want to go what how do we want to uh rebuild Michigan Avenue so once again it's a place where there's Business Development and and there's houses and there's and there's and there's space and green spaces and and open spaces and public Commons and walkways and all that uh you know so how can we you know what did we once have what happened to it and now how can we recreate it and how can we uh create even something better uh you know so I mean this we can have that process and we can change that culture as a as a part of a transformative in in a transformative processes and like whether it's Dudley Street or United neighborhoods or uh lawn and uh and La other you know that that you can begin to to set up a u um U processes where folks begin in in that fight they begin to uh reconstruct a new culture and um as they as they're building and creating a new economy but you know there was a sense of community and Tranquility too we can sit on our porches and talk the older women in my neighborhood called all the boys to knit for some reason they saw something that would would would calm us down and we used to knit and you know donate these things you know I need all my sister sweaters and like that I mean you don't ever think about that but they saw something the way to main still trying to get that picture [Laughter] well we promised you break and I'm thinking we should probably let you have that do would that be good and could could we do instead of a half hour like we did yesterday maybe just 10 minutes so that sound good so we we'll start exactly at 4 o' whether you're here or not great thank you so I I think what what we're thinking about is um you asked to spend some time talking about a a project that you're interested in looking at um and you've got a write up that you've shared with people do most people have a copy of the writeup of that other business that we're not going to we're not going to mention specifically excuse me I'm not sure if everyone had that W here last time well here maybe we can share that one everybody can look on just one page right there um so what we were thinking about is spending about a half hour just um brainstorming ideas about how you might work with this group uh to help them look at the possibility of a group-based business and then to spend about 10 or 15 minutes just talking a little bit about sustaining businesses some stories of businesses that weren't able to be sustained a little bit of case study conversation um and uh because it is it's not worth starting them if you can't keep them around and then we'll spend the last um 15 minutes evaluating the course and um ask you to fill in a evaluation form which actually I'll I'll hand out now so you can have it around um that sound like a good way to spend our last last hour together here um great actually just pass so um you've written up the background information for the matapan the group oh well you've written up the information for the group that um we'll do a little editing on the tape maybe um that you're going to be working with and we've already talked a lot about how to take groups through strategic planning and the Business Development process and then um uh getting to launch as you think about all the stuff we've been talking about in this group that you've been talking to what are the questions that you have about how to proceed what are the ideas you have about how to proceed and you got a a group here of folks who've done a lot of this stuff and have some other stories that we can share with you to help Co to you on that I I think one one concern that we've had convention this right up which so for a a little background this is a a CDC that approached us knowing that we're in this class together um and they're interested in starting up a youth run Cooperative producing soaps and shampoos and things like that using herbs from Community Gardens so using lavender other things from from Community Gardens in Boston and making these soaps and producing them and selling them and I think the main like our main concern at this point in the process which it's kind of Ls just getting off the ground is um it's not really a group that came to us nor even youth it's uh someone who's part of this CDC um and I think we're concerned that if there's not a group group of Youth that are committed to the idea and going to put their time and work into it yet that maybe that has to happen first and that there's this uh we're kind of dealing with a rush to do a business plan when there's not even kind of a group that's bought into the concept I think one question then would be do we do you flush out a idea what the business could be so that you can then recruit a group of Youth CU she seems confident you can go and grou group use easily um so I mean some I guess the one question i' have for the experts would be then um I guess specifically with with youth cooperatives U they need to start up with like a core group before can the concept be developed kind by a sponsor like the CDC you had an experience oh yeah so I mean my my um I've been in that position several times and um um my attitude is uh if it's easy for you to produce produce it you know I mean uh that needs to happen CU a lot of times uh um many times the recruitment of uh of young people uh that are ready to you know to to to put their hands to the till and and and work on a project is uh a lot of times easier said than done particularly with uh sometimes very traditional cdcs and nonprofits where they they hav't really built the the uh trust relationships and uh and the uh um and the the connections to uh uh to um um uh particularly the kind uh uh young people in the U uh that they're they're trying to Target so so I think you know you have to begin to begin to have that conversation with the uh the the the members the potential members for the organization bringing those together at least a a small core you know I mean you don't uh have to have uh you know if the the plan is 15 to 20 or you know 35 to 40 or whatever uh you don't have to have all those in place but uh um I'd find suspect uh a situation that couldn't bring three to five uh uh uh folks that that young people that are are willing to sit down and be involved in a in a in a planning and discussion process uh about this uh business that they wants to support either if you want to respond to that did you say they had already defined a product or what it was they were going to at this point they were inspired by reading about a group of Youth in the Bronx but that was just an example they were not necessarily looking at producing soap or something like that themselves brother I guess soap and stuff was the idea but I don't know if they were there necessarily tied to that and the idea was that it would be I mean just a competition around soup from Walgreens and places that sell so cheap and whatever but this was going to be some kind of specialty soap I gu they tossed out the idea that it could be sold in Trader Joe's or it could be kind of a maybe more of like a boutique so what was the in concern was it something that they hoped to be able to generate money to put back into in operation or do they just want to try their handed business for business sake me I guess probably because of the youth focus it has kind of a educational component so the entrepreneurial skills and then the agricultural gardening skills um and then also kind of a science component where you be production of the Soaps and things would be a science lesson I mean one concern I had was okay well you could said that maybe the business side of it would be like you said funding that kind of learning side of it but I wonder if there needs to be more a little more division like here's the business side that's involved in but if going be educational couldn't they really take and do a greater analysis of what potentially might be the best product or what area they might have more success in and in something that could really stabilize them uh and and and even doing a market analysis right in their own Community as well as in a greater region because I think even these groups that try to do Urban Gardens or whatever else they got to have a distribution Theory and everything else worked out in order to be successful almost as a collective there may be other groups doing some similar kinds of things that they could coordinate with or and and and and something like what they're doing no doubt the Unitarian Church or somebody like that might underwrite it but when I first heard soap the first thing I thought about is I know a guy named Jamie gamble part of the Proctor and Gamble family very Progressive and he might be somebody who'd be interested just to talk with and come up with ideas but but but I don't I'm not so sure that the focus is just on the soap or whether it should be cuz you can create all kinds of soap with herbs you can go along almost any place you know special specially Place whatever else and find all kinds of good smelling soap but I just wonder why they just it's just because of this article they read what you're trying to do now is giving them a greater exposure mhm to think what is their greatest natural resources in that area that they might develop that that that could be productive and you know yeah she I mean um she wasn't you know like saying that she wanted to do you know so that she was saying you know that she was inspired by by that example and wonder you know find out whether not it could work but she was really open to other ideas uh matter of fact one of the things she asked us to do was to you know research different types of you know of of of Cooperative models U you know along along with other things but um you know there was just that initial concern about you know the level of involvement in students up front and U you know whether or not you know they would actually you know be motivated to actually do it once we actually started the work um so you know but you know first thing you know we have to um get together with her again we only had one brief meeting and I think two three of us to here so you know we we just you know all the schedule trying to get those things together just haven't been able to really sit down with her to get more information um from her from there so we still have this this very preliminary stage right but we want to build on her passion and certainly we we we want to mature that entrepreneurial spirit and but we want to do such a way that it is educational but that it isn't cumbersome it doesn't Tire you out it I mean it leaves you a road to pursue to learn things and get to a place so I think what we're trying to do now is design what those steps are uh make it both educational fun and productive and I I just want to there's a lot of different ways to support the development of group based businesses one is you work with the members themselves and you help them start the business there are other Co-op development models and group-based Business Development models that work effectively and there are a couple there are two that I know of particularly in development of worker co-ops where um the the Development Group goes in starts the co-op and then hires the workers and trains them to take it over and um so and I and I know of of of many youth projects where people created the project on behalf of Youth and then brought the youth in to do it um and it's it's not the kind of group-based Business Development I personally find as satisfying and it does have more risks built in because if you build it will they come um you know so there it takes a certain amount of um connection to the Target population that you want to benefit from this uh and and I've also seen disasters where um a group of middle class folks will build a co-op for those poor people they need a food store and so they build the food store and they you know they launch the food store store and they hire all the low-income folks to come and run their food store and they you know stock the shelves and within 3 months all the inventory is missing from the shelf and shelves and the the you know the the cop has folded because it was a group of people doing something on behalf of another group of people out of you know kind of misplaced motivation so it can it can be a disaster and it can work well um the a group has a model for starting you know cooperatives on behalf of low-income workers that's effective they identify models that work financially they Implement them build them in a way that's very functional and they bring people in and they add value so I've seen it go both ways yeah in Buffalo I'm working with a a group of uh uh Young Folks they they're connected with a group called Massachusetts Avenue project they've been running uh um the group I used to run you know uned neighborhoods in cooperation with M um map we uh we set up Community guidance around the around the city um map it also then set up a community kitchen and and you know and they wanted to then now move to try to um uh set up a a Eun um organization that would um that would produce something from the uh from the gardens um you know there the the conversation was just with um the U uh the director and uh uh and then one of the um uh other program people then we talk to them about you know not you know um you know asking what about if could we begin to meet with you know is there one or two or three um um really uh youth leaders that that could join us in this process that help us uh you know and talk you know and giv them we gave them a sense of went through the uh the first things first and the uh and that uh and that sheet the uh that that we went went through the over the last couple days uh you know so we you know gave got a sense of what what things needed to be done in terms of the feasibilities and the business plan and all that stuff and uh uh and won them to the point that we that we needed to have some youth involved in that process right at the beginning to make sure that we didn't make some decisions that would would come back to B Us in the behind later which in my experience always happens you know if uh if older folk are trying to plan for young folk and um and um and then we uh uh about uh we shot for two five showed uh showed up we had a great conversation they came up with uh you know it got to be fun that you know like what kind of things you wanted to produce they decided they wanted to produce they were they were leaning toward hot sauce you know we talked about how we're going to uh need to do a feasibility and all that you know they came up with an idea that they were going to call it um themselves buff naked and it's like a buffalo uh you know doing like this covering and you know and that's their logo you know we kind of talked about you know how if we're going to do this we need to make it a some Niche marketing you know we had to come up with something that emphasizes that it's locally grown that it's young people involved and you know Etc you know and so got them thinking about what was the marketing and and they're excited you know and you know and and so it started out with the uh you know the you know the Dyan the the program person thinking I I don't know if we can we need to have all this stuff done because we bring them in too early they're going to be bored and you know and they're going to drop out you know but we completely disproved that you know and and now they're in it they're they're charging up they're coming up with stuff we would have never thought of and and and and at the same time that that educational process is starting right then now they're talking they're you know learning about what is what it takes to build a business what kind of a you know it's not just an idea in your head that you got to go out there and and and and and deal with research and we're involving them in in the research we got them in uh going out their their their surfing websites along with us you hands she was first and then a couple other kind of models then but also just to take you back on yours one of the models I was going to say which isn't like an official model but um starting where people are in terms of not actually trying to start with the project you had in mind that start with something simple that has a small victory so my example is always you know building the playground cuz it's very finite it's very visible whatever but the whole process of getting a community to build the playground and in this case if she want to start with trying to identify some youth who might be potential youth for later you know getting them involved but there's so many steps to what you have to do between fundraising designing the playground you know building it all kinds of things like that you end up developing connections skills supports and group Consciousness that then can be transported to the next project a bigger more elaborate more economic project that kind of thing so it's not exactly your but it's a similar idea just start where they are and bring them up to the point um and it maybe that they don't want to do soap but they want to do you know selling fresh vegetables to schools or something you know but anyway that's one of the models another model is actually University of Pennsylvania I think it's their commity Development Center or something um I can give you the reference probably when I get back to the office or it's in one of my papers but anyway um they actually partnered with the horiculture Department of the University of Pennsylvania and it's a both a teaching and an economic development project and what they do is the horiculture students teach nutrition and horiculture to high school students those high school students then go into the middle school and teach the same thing they learned from the college students the middle school and the middle schools do the same thing in the elementary school at the same time they actually it's a practicum so they're actually also doing Urban Gardens in the schoolyards so the in the high schools the high school students are actually growing stuff while they're learning this progress well once they've grown the stuff they also then start doing farmers markets buying clubs Etc in order to get rid of or get do something with the produce and they're doing that even at the elementary level so so in addition to doing this purely educational stuff both for the college students and for everybody they're also then getting the students involved in these entrepreneurial activities in terms of the farmers markets the buying clubs eventually a food co-op as well as teaching them to teach their families about nutrition and Horticulture how to grow the food so they have actually I don't know what that is a five pron program which is totally educational plus eventually Onre um and I don't know exactly how they work it out I don't know if they have what they do for the entrepreneurial projects if those are totally separate from this institute at the University or what but you could look that up because a lot of their stuff is on the web for their people to talk to um and then the third model um I work very closely with Mana CDC and Washington DC which is a CDC connected to a nonprofit housing group and they actually do do uh sponsor Coop Co-op development and community based development but the project I was really thinking of for this example is they work with an environmental group um on a bicycle shop which actually didn't start out to be a bicycle shop it started out to try to teach local kids in the Middle School how to fix bicycles and then try to encourage them to use bicycles as an ecology thing but what happened was as they went into the schools teaching them how to fix bicycles they realized they needed a place to really use their skills so they now have opened a shop which they're turning into a youth Co-op a bicycle repair shop and a bicycle selling shop so again it's that connection between starting out actually in these cases they're starting out trying to educate and then moving into the entrepreneurial side once they've developed certain skills develop the report with the kids that the only thing I was going to suggest uh to the students here is that um we have an you have an opportunity to get a MIT community service Grant um which could actually potentially take some of the young people that e is working with to maybe visit Philly or visit DC the bicycle or visit Buffalo and so I just want to make sure we you know you get all this stuff down because that might be a good way of like you know getting the youth really exposed to a lot of different ideas and and maybe getting Juiced up seeing other young people you know doing this kind of but we have to get that thing in soon so the other thing I want to throw out is um there's a growing disparity in wealth in this country and there's a tremendous tendency to say okay let's create Boutique products for those people who have extra wealth because we're going to be able to make a good business because there's you know a whole group of people that have extra money and so I I have a just a visceral resistance to it and um and would encourage you to think about bikes I mean these are this is a basic need for transportation that those kids are involved in versus making a boutique soap for people who have extra money that they can spend you know $10 per bar of soap instead of 25 can I say one thing about that at MIT there's a professor here who's a uh a physicist I think he's an applied physicist here you probably see me as all here in but anyway uh he started something I forget the name of the organization but they actually people donate bikes to them they fix the bikes and then they send them like all around the world you know and they send like whole container ships those containers it's full of bikes um so he's right here and they have a bike shop and I think I I am guessing I'm pretty sure he would be thrilled about working with young people and sort of showing them like how to fix the F and stuff like that so that's just one like somewhere somewhere in Cambridge near Harvard but it's uh for for young women it's I think primary yeah I think it's right on Broadway and in maybe it's called like bicycle Revolution or something like that recyle bikes and teach girls how to fix but it's not actually Cooper that's good so what other kinds of thoughts do you have about how to proceed with this group any other key questions potential obstacles problems well so it seem no I I just had a comment it seems like like we could be at a St still so still because it's whether we're in sort of the idea phase it's like what is the idea that you want to center it around or to whether you just want us to create whe whether she just wants us to create a business model that she caner insert anything to but it sort of depends on what the actual idea is to determine what what business model we use is that not right pretty much so we can't do the second without doing the first which is the idea itself but then if if we just do some idea then there's no real guarantee that there's going to be buying by whoever she goes out and gets but we're just hoping that there will be there's no guarantee they'll be buying around the herb um you know the Senate herbs or whatever but I think the reason she was pulled towards that is because the CDC already has an extensive Community gardening sort of program that has a lot of participation amongst older people in in the neighborhood and I think she just saw that as like a launching pad working with youth but I I think she's open to whatever um you know I I know she wanted she just saw on the web that in the Bron there was a youth group that was doin the the Senate thing and that's that was the only reason she sort of that and the fact that Community guards was steered her in that direction but I I think she'd be very open to bicycles or other things if it's dual the main thing she leared from us is we can go through and tell her here's what would be involved in doing these Senator sort of thing but if here's something else that looks really interesting or why don't we take the young people and visit a few things I think she'd be really into all of that just to add to what you said there's two pieces one is she's doing entrepreneurial I don't know classes with a group of middle school age I don't know we don't know what the curriculum looks like or what she's teaching them a piece there and there's also I think in that school across the street is a youth one of the Community Gardens that designated a youth Garden so I think she put those two things together the other thing she threw out as an idea was kind of what you were saying before about branding the city or the community as as as this thing and that there could be a number of products under that brand but but could it be recognized as something of value that's a youth and I don't want to name the city but um but I think dr's point about okay so how do we move forward when you know we're basically students trying to support an initiative that isn't quite an initiative I think that's where a lot of us are just sort of paralyzed and and we'll have more conversations with her and we'll pull something out in the next you know a couple of weeks but you know what's the bit what's the most that we can offer I would go back to doing you know SWAT basic SWAT analysis what are the strengths opportunities weakness threats here what what key you know if they've already got this um community garden program you know that's an asset you want to you want to build on something that um this organization is already good at if you can and work of co-ops are the hardest to get through the step one on because they don't really there's you know it doesn't really matter what they're making they'd like to have a job that's quality and you know they and so the the universe is totally open which makes it harder cuz until you know what the product is you can't go and do the business planning if you're going to do a bike then you want to know all the other bike you know if you think you might want to do a bike shop you want to know all the other bike shops in the area you want to know if there's a market need for this you know maybe a different place or geographic location or whatever I mean you got to do the research but you got to know if you're going to do bikes if you're doing soap you don't need to know about bikes so you know there's a huge amount of information you got to collect once you know what you're going to do and the worker Co-op you want to either start with the group and find out what their strengths are or you want to start with the host organization and say what are your key strengths that we can build on um and so yeah so so a lot of this is you know what we've been working on over the last uh three sessions is you know how do we take you know as as U as the Consultants how do you know we not um take it on ourselves that we answer the the the questions that and and and and solve the the whatever the challenges in front of us but how do we make it a a a colle a collect question that we all turning it back and and and and and and get the client working with us you know and solving that and you know and that in that process raising the U um so so there here's this whole set of information that we need before we can go go further we're excited about it we think that's got some real possibilities you know uh but here's some things we need you know and going through the that some of those the packet of information that we have and then and using that as an as an occasion to say also that uh it it would be good if we um got a better sense of um who's going to be the the front line on on this in this operation you know to what degree can we begin to to to involve young people now and and then talk about that you know they may just say that that's not you know I agree I mean it's I prefer doing it the other way but but uh but at least uh um you know it get clear if you know if they if they got a problem with uh bringing the young folks in early finding out what that is getting a sense on it you know so you know you it it you can include that in your in your planning and in your analysis of uh of where this group is but you know but use it as an opportunity to try to bring some other folks to the table um you know uh cuz like I said trying to work with one person I mean you know the media I find mean like I got another you know where I'm dealing with a block Club leader she has a whole set of ideas you know um it's been a little process of saying okay we've met a couple times but U uh U can we bring a a few more folks to to to the table so I can get a sense uh you know I need we need to be able to make sure you know where everybody is at on there you know as we've done those role plays you know group might have made a decision that to go this direction there may be 101 different variations on how uh uh United they are on that you're going to need to know that you know in order to you know plan things you know uh and and um you know to develop your your the planning process so so bringing them uh in trying to get more people to the table able you know you know in a diplomatic and respectful fashion you know like you know we're not you know you know we're not going to just deal with you until you bring some you know some young people to the table but you say you know it would be uh you know this there could be some real problems developed you know if we don't have an understanding of what they you know do do they want to work in uh you know have they been uh involving young people in in in the community guidance process is it is it this the first step or or maybe like in the this group in uh Buffalo they uh they um you know they they've had three different sets of uh uh classes of of young people that have have been taught uh uh growing uh uh organic uh uh Foods over the last uh 2 and A2 years uh you know so we were able to plan that in and we know we we got a group of about somewhere between 25 and 30 young people that that have some developed skills and and and growing organic foods and raised beds uh you know now how do we you know go back to some of them and see how many them really want to be in in this uh in this hot sauce Venture um you know so so I mean there's just a lot of information that you need you use it uh uh as a uh you know the the the to raise some questions with them that that that uh you can talk out together and and gather that information so you can begin to and hopefully bring more people to the table particularly young people so that you can begin to do that planning process and in my mind it has to do with your goals and objectives if you if they if they want young people to know how to start businesses they have have to be involved in the planning process if they want people young people to know how to work in a business and understand how the business is working then you know there's other models where you can set it all up and just bring them in and teach them their part and hope they you know grow into an understanding of the bigger uh piece so it's it's about what are the what are the priorities here and I agree with Jessica that you know if you're going to do the the Community Gardens business it might be good to start off with with something that's not um related to the business Enterprise but just learning how to grow something in the community garden just Education and Training you know as a first step for for young people before they're you know trying to run a business with a lot more pressure and deadlines and and whatnot that kind of process was very good at bonding Youth and seniors in Dudley Street early on that's what really got them to do things together and then from there they went to you know markets and of course there's a big food project in Roxbury too that for which I mean so you might talk to some of them because the youth groups in dudy really got started through that you know being a compliment piece but of course and in the fact that you had ethnicities from the Caribbean from Puerto Rico from the south from Cape verie and other places you know was a it was a grounded natural interest but it also gave them a business mindset to start a t-shirt business and some other kinds of things and you know that May Le to cuzz I think getting back to something we were talking about last night and Phil said my concern is always we usually think of a single entity in these communities rather than creating a critical mass that assures of something thriving you know because there has to be that kind of competition and quality of economic revolving and whatever and I I and hopefully we can lead more people to understanding take these steps together to be compliment because the business planning itself could cross number of potential kinds of business let people get it in their heart that this is a way to maintain these things in our own area so um so how you feeling but I think this is a great idea that the U Phil's idea of that being able to take back to the person and say that uh uh you know we got a possibility of being able some money to be able to take a group of young people to to visit some uh best practices that's you know it's given some some learning by doing I mean you know that they can go and then meet some other young people and hear some stories and see you know some uh uh uh successful projects fantastic uh you know for for getting people excited and and Juiced that right at the at early on so um um that that that's a nice little nugget to bring back you know to start the negotiations off you know and saying so you know and this is how you know we we think you know CU it also shows that you you're looking at Dynamic and creative ways of doing that cuz a lot of times you know and rightfully so that they're afraid that somebody may come in and bring in some very stilted U education training uh um process that will weaken their youth work and you know so you want to be able to show that that you're going to bring you're going to bring added value to it you're not going to weaken what what they're already doing so that gives a good example of how how it's going to be done yeah I a few minutes ago so but I feel like one scenario and kind of like what do we do now question is we'll go back back to them and and share maybe some of these concerns and some ideas and share the their trip to see best practices and they'll say that's great and then she may say well we really because of our strengths of R CBC and because of the strengths of the youth we really like this idea of the Soaps like I I really think that's the way to go and what we want you guys to do is to do the business plan or do and this gets I think more practical where I feel like I'm in over my head which is okay let's say they tell us can you please do a business plan for us for uh scented soaps and this is let maybe not particular to grp business it's more about business in general but I'm not sure I would know exactly what to do to identify whether the feasibility of scented soaps in Boston and maybe you could talk us through like maybe that gets us too veered off off path but what if that's what they tell us like do a business let take that on and we're running short on this is going to be instead of the full day that we could spend on that question you know we're we're going to do the 5 minute version um so and the question the question is what would what would we need to know to be reasonably assured that a scented soap business could be successful and we need to know about raw materials coming in what it takes to process and then selling those out so what do we need to know about raw materials coming in what key questions would you have cost transor processing capacity distribution yeah what are the ingredients where are you going to get them from how much will it cost to get them there yeah what are what are the issues about dealing with live I don't know about so so anyway so you know that's little it is sorry about that um and then and then all I know is that if you make biodiesel the wrong way you end up with soap so I've learned that but anyway so if you collaborate [Music] with our bades all right um and then so then processing what would you need to know about processing where a location different types of of um uh you know C Cod for you know containment or any of those types of things and um just like just like in a practical thing like all these like these little specialty soaps and everything not when not Pur them my main concern is does this last as long asend a little bit more on because I want to support you but does it actually last as long that's you know clean I'm going to get clean but does it last as long or does it just dry up in the week and these hers are being bu in community Gard there's only one short Harvest here in think about green hous they want to do it more than one time a year the green hous y had to stock up and raw materials summer so that they they yeah Boston I thought it was yeah yeah we all want to hear of ofm oil [Laughter] gold so product product Define defining the product um product quality all of those things are really important you know do melt with one washing and um Gus was raising the issue is you know if you're using fresh herbs there's a seasonality to it if you're using dried herbs how are you going to be drying and storing them you know it's another whole set of questions um and then Staffing how many people do you need to make what equipment do you need um what's your packaging going to be like um all of those questions will really determine what kind of what kind of price you're going to the package is going to determine probably and some product quality how much you're going to be able to charge um and then is there anything else on on operations that we need to think about pretty much hit it yeah and then and then you want to get the product out of your um your manufacturing facility what what do you need to know in order to know you're going to be able to sell it a sell I mean where where is be on sale yeah well I'd start with is there a market you know who who are you going to sell it to what other choices do those consumers have where do they get that product now how much do they pay so research on what you're up against and then a a sense of what you're going to charge for it there is a website at the University of Wisconsin exension what is that Co Cooper exension on their website they do have very userfriendly downloads about how do you do a business plan yeah you know which I think are really good for like for you know for working through a group like this you know CU it kind of like walks you through the step by step kind of thing the the the handout that we gave you for the the on the second day which had to do with was the market planning book I would do that book it it walks through all of this these issues because if you don't have a market for it yeah you know don't bother so I would probably do that first um with whatever they whatever they pick and get the it's that workbook is written in a way that you can get people to help kind of gather that data uh about you know what you're going to sell and whether there's a some of that Gathering of data the youth can do it it's great project right I mean that might be our advice as we come to them and say this the the planning of the business is this first project and we more can plan out how they could design a course around it or how there can be and the process of of maybe doing all this research could have some easy wins or some First Step things to get to on the way I think even just making a distinction between a feasibility study and a business prog right would be a really good good thing to do with them and kind of let's do the feasibility piece you know and then let's do the business plan and then the way you were discussing it like let skip the youth involved at every stage because I don't think she's thought about a feasibility plan you know stud and then yeah and then that gets fleshing it out cuz a lot of times like I got a a person like said that she read something she's been you know she's been running this organization she's you know trying to figure out how to get young people inv you know the folk on the corners she want to how figure out how to provide them you know instead of just getting them arrested how to you know the come up with some jobs but uh you know so she had an idea oh yeah and then uh you know and then so then she you know then you know so she had an initial idea as we did the uh uh start of the feasibility discussion it became clear that that idea you know didn't have much legs to it you know there wasn't even real possibility making any money and you know anybody being able to really make any U uh going concern on it you know and then from that now you know U we got you know there's a larger group going and they're having a a they're actually now having a group of people talking and then and they're following the uh materials that g gave them you know and trying to decide what products might work and you know and they got one or two folks from the corner you know that that's that's involved in in in that discussion now so so you know we we'll see but you know but a lot of times you know starting that feasibility you know or you know sometimes even when the plan is done you produce the business plan and then all of a sudden it's like this is you know was a good it was a good idea a year ago but now it's a dumb idea now that we got all the facts so you know so what you know so then you know maybe we need a you know another product you know uh uh uh you know and we need some we need to tweak our numbers something and figure out another way to do it I would also just search online for um uh so production business plan and if you can and and find out other businesses go visit them before we did the biodiesel business we visited four other production facilities we got business plans from two or three other places and then we started our business planning process once we were really educated about what it was going to take you know what other people had bought through in order to make it work it's it's always kind of hard the SBA also has um certain guidelines benchmarks for different kinds of businesses so the more data you can get about how other businesses are already doing it um the better yeah so so maybe going back to that group in the Bronx you uh um you know as a part of the trip and some other things they they may have some U one I mean you know add some data that they can uh that they might be willing to share you know um but at least give you they make give a better sense of the complexities and so you know that that they had to go through in order to to get to where they are to be a best practice as they are now they could also tell her you know say it's just a fantastic thing you they so engaged we're educating people it's just fantastic and we only have to raise $150,000 a year to support it you know and it that might just like go so um anyway yeah finding out what other people are successful models if you can start with successful models that's always great the other thing with the research phase is um sometimes the process is actually more important than the end product especially with youth so it's very possible that just the fact that you get them going through all this looking at different places doing feasibility studies trying to write a business plan they'll end up in a totally different place which is not necessarily a failure so you know even if she doesn't come out with the thing that the end that she thought she wanted she may be in a much better different place and so I think she should be encouraged to be kind of open about where it will all lead um but also to think about the skills that are gained on the way CU I know I remember hearing one story about some they were going to start some phone banking type Co-op or something and they trained everybody to how to answer phones and this and that and then the whole thing fell through but it turned out in the process they had so many new skills they all were able to actually go out and get better jobs than they would have if the co-op had gone through and so you know that's not really a fail unless you really were sad on having a car but people got well trained people got good jobs you know so if you see it that way you can also so actually would that which something you just said make me think that rather than us one sort of product that we could have is sort of a business plan you know we like how do we do that and we'll do it and then but then like one of the values that we said was important that people go through the the business planning process so maybe another product that we can have or rather than the business plan is sort of like do the business plan ourselves and then have it sort of structure as a process so then she could take you know the young people through it without having to do all the extra stuff that we've already done except like you know if they want to go out and get people's information in the in the neighborhood and stuff like that but they will have all the the basic information so that they can go through the process so it won't be so you know it won't be so strenuous on them so that could be another problem you know we can create sort of a process that's already sort of you know done already as a product you and I mean the to me the one of the key elements of the feasibility study is the is the the financi you know the financials looking ahead 3 to 5 years to say can this business make some money is it is it going to sustain so you need someone that can put together the profit and loss statement and hook that into the balance sheet and a cash flow statement so that you know they can see whether or not it's going to be profitable and the best ones are set up in a spreadsheet so you can say okay we've got this many staff people or we're producing we've got this many bars of soap coming out or this many so you can change the variables and see how it runs how the business runs over 3 to 5 years and I don't know if you have those skills in your group but I think you want to find them um you know to to so you can do that analysis and with that yes we I think our time is is is has come to an end and um we would really love to hear from you um what if you were to go out right now and start working with a group-based business what things have you learned in the last 12 hours that would be that are helpful to you and what else do you need to know in order to feel like you would be ready to do that yeah lights would be good we know where they are and we could turn this off also if we knew how doesn't matter so much yeah so our our question is you know what are one or two of the things that you've learned that you think would be useful to you in helping to start group based businesses and what else would you need to know in order to feel like you might be ready to do something EMA the slide yes Power Point absolutely yep we'll get it to Kiara and Phil and then they can get it out anyone's not in the class yeah there's another one we'll send you to them then going have a chance to to get so can could we go around things that you've learned things you still need to know I I could start um and we talked about this a tiny bit as we debriefed after the last role play yesterday which was I me one thing that it made me think about was not really particular necessarily the group based business but working with groups how do you what are the skills on working with groups and I think in the role plays I was both time I was on the consultant side of the table um and I think that there's a the the whole like how do you pull out the and let surface the goals and the desires of a group because if they're going to do this business it better be what they want to do we would we talking about this with the youth the youth thing like the youth better want to do the business that they're going to be getting into so I think that the role of the consultant how do you how do you not say too much but say the right things um and Trigger ask the right questions and just listen I feel like that I definitely got that out of these sessions think just thinking about that reflecting on that and um I would say um for me like what I take from it from from the from the training most is just the whole process of of thinking through the process U this the development most useful you know for me and just just laying out you know these these VAR steps regardless of how you actually follow them you know you know work them out in a real world setting but just you know to separate them up I I had a major question about you know where does the board come in did you do the board before or after incorporate or you know I was just questions about that so just you know just just putting that whole process in order and seeing this you know just lays out and played out and just and just for clarity the the the order that's there isn't is is H it's not an order you know it's like it's one order but sometimes they incorporate before the business plan sometimes after the business plan you know it's like it's it's one it's one way but there are a lot of pieces that you know every time you're working with a group they do it a different way but I'm glad you found that useful no similarly like I thought that was pretty useful um just having everything I mean up for the 4 and 1 half hours I was here um maybe less just everything we enjoyed every minute um just seeing like the pieces of it and like pieces of the process like even if you decide to leave them another way it was just that was helpful um cuz that was something that like I was concerned about knowing how to do I think I yeah I'm not sure exactly where I leave after these four sessions but I know that all all the different organizing efforts that I'm involved in I feel like I can insert this conversation or at least start to insert this conversation in in those processes and see where that goes and so that's that's one thing and then I also feel like I joked with them before I was like I have your cell phone number but you know I feel like the the network here I me yeah the wealth of Knowledge from you all and also from my peers I feel like as we move forward into our different you know kind of areas like I hope that we can draw on each other and I think that was definitely in the way you introduced the conversation a piece about how do we not only support you know group- based businesses and co-ops but also support networks to form of them and support each other so I think probably the most valuable thing I take away is just from meeting everyone hearing from them and feeling like like I can call on that that knowledge again nobody actually said I could but you can welcome to please must start I was thinking if it's possible to apply this kind of organizations in my country mhm that is my my problem the ass the label ass associations associative in my country is lower than here in the United States and uh the the word level is very lower too and that is the problem maybe we could we should do some some other things before thinking in cops and organizations like that but you have some yeah but some not a lot not it's like sections or the best examples there there are many models in Africa and India and you know other part lot America parts of Latin America Southern South America that you know where where people in total property are looking at ways to build build assets and our examples from this country don't start all the way with with that level of poverty but they they do exist and I could help you find some some of that literature yeah but I have a problem with it's like a social struggle and then you have mass media consumption it's a it's like a spirit that you must to struggle [Music] with I was just going to mention that um right here in this department you have a number of people um who have uh done a fair amount of work on co-ops in India um there's a PhD student sitting right over there who's writing a dissertation on um Romania she's from Romania on the transition from the old uh co-ops to new kinds of co-ops and you know usually students who study us Community Development have very little interaction with the students in International Development and the she was shocked to learn that there were actually students who were studying the US who were looking at co-ops you know she was just totally I just told her she was totally um but there they have had co-ops at scale for a long time and I I think that you could probably have a lot of pretty interesting we all could conversations about what happens when you do get to a certain level and you have mass participation in cooperatives what kinds of issues come up that's what she's writing her dissertation about but um Bish SE who's you know teaches in International Development Department here has written about co-ops in Bombay um and it's really interesting because one of the things he talks about is what happens when you have very poor people who through cooperatives suddenly have wealth and it's really interesting some of them become really conservative and so you know he has written about the importance of politics and political development um and that you see economic you never can think you're going to just do Economic Development and not pay attention to the he'll just that'll bite you you know that's his you know view but you know I think there there are uh there are a lot because of the diversity you know in Boston here you know now these days I think there are a lot of productive conversations that can happen and probably a lot of who have a lot have experience with these things than we do who could be real assets any anyone else only here today I mean I just thought it to think of to change societ I am very used to thinking just sort of like it's no it's really it's really interesting something we of lose this country because there so much integration in [Music] our don't have a process language simultaneously feels like you're at a Common Table benefit of D Street so much day one they on a translation what I because to be to the table every kinds of Strat and process I mean that they create when I was America in our elor but a barter and trading system that keeps things recycl think like that that is it's it's really hard to work easier to work with yeah true eom doing interesting you know there are you know indigenous Eastern and it's it's a very interesting multi-racial it's called first stuff just one more overlap is a and and andain their own societies so just just from a sustainability perspective their view is we are the stewards of and to move this moving quick here and I just want to build on one mention ear is that I would never a group based the development project by myself I only have certain set skills there's a couple things I'm really good at a couple things I know a little bit about and a couple things I don't know anything about at all and so as you go forward please do you know if you get to work with a group um we could well thank you a out of it really not I you know you really put a lot into making things accessible for us and hands on and I think it works well so thank you yeah thanks a lot [Applause] we really like to get these uh filled in can the evaluations the evaluations thank you all so much and again Let's Stay Together be