Lec 13 MIT 11.949 11.949 City Visions Past and Future

your microphone so we can get started all right I'm want to rush us into starting because we have two in a way almost two presentations tonight I I want to First apologize and thank Bruce for allowing somebody to kind of PG it back on his very important utopian Vision we're going to be hearing about the local and Global in in Jerusalem um we also have with us um the k u visiting from to grab him from a series of Peace events in the United States and he changed his travel plans to staying EX in the United States until we have a full T so let me say a little something about the evening and about both of our speakers U the here we are the last week of the city's uh against nationalism seminar we've as I mentioned last week kind of started moving towards the global more conscientiously trying to think about the ways in which understanding the global context or changes in globalization may offer a new way of thinking about uh peacemaking in cities and uh along those lines we ask Bruce mus who's a professor of History here at MIT who has worked extensively on the history global history and globalization from the historical perspective to be our final speaker this the title of his talk is a local and Global in um Jerusalem I should also say that in addition to his recent work and writing on global history he is the author of The uncertain Sciences the fourth discontinuity um the a new science the breakdown of connections and the birth of Sociology he's a fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences uh the recipient of the toy be prize which is an international award in social science and just an expert in historical methodology psycho history and social history um after Bruce speaks tonight and I I I beg your uh uh uh accommodation in our schedule but we will have speakers up until probably 7 and then we'll allow a half an hour for comments so I know normally we go past 7 anyway but I want to prepare you in advance and we'll probably go till 7:30 don't want to lose the opportunity of um to ask questions of both of our speakers after uh Professor musle speaks we will have Dr monine a senior Le in the department of political science at bar Lan University and he's also a senior research fellow at the Jerusalem Institute for Israel studies Dr Klein is a board member of betm the Israeli information center for human rights in the occupied territories in 2000 he was an external um expert adviser for Jerusalem Affairs and Israel PLO final status talks to the minister of internal interior security and Ministry of Foreign Affairs he was also a member of the political advisory team operating in the office of prime minister Barack um he's been involved in many uh unofficial negotiations with Palestinian counterparts and most recently in October 2003 he signed together with prominent Israeli and Palestinian negotiators the Geneva understanding what we know as the Geneva Accord responsible largely for the the um component on Jerusalem so we are very excited that he's here today I just want to also mention that he the there are two books that are very Central to our project one the earliest Jerusalem the contested city which we have here at MIT and the second the newest book the Jerusalem problem the struggle for permanent status uh which we have on the sell site a couple of the chapters of which include a vision for J in in the future so without further Ado I'll turn it over to you hopefully 45 minutes and then we'll move on to oops well I need to start with a apologia on two counts one when Diane Davis first asked if I would uh participate in the series uh I said I know nothing about Jerusalem more or less but I would do a crash course and on the city I know a little more but not all that much and I would do a crash course but I got a uh I I became sick and so the only crash that will occur is probably what I'm going to be doing now um so there are two grounds for my apologia one uh the illness and two uh the lack of knowledge globalization is something I do think I know something about so I'm going to start talking about that um I had planned to come to all of the talks being a responsible citizen uh I did make it to the first one Gerald frug uh and then I got sick so I hope that at least there'll be some suggestions and questions that will emerge from what I I say I'm going to talk on three topics each one of which deserves 45 minutes um one is globalization the other is the global City and the third is jwm so let me start by saying something about globalization is seen from a historical perspective for about the last 12 years a number of us have been working on the What's called the new global history initiative uh at a number of international conferences and other things I'll give you the website if you want it now when we say history we have in mind an interdisciplinary uh approach uh the starting point if you're going to be talking about globalization is to avoid evaluation you know I'm anti- globalization or I'm PR globalization that's simply the wrong way of going about it what we've tried to do is some empirical work some theoretical reflection and to go back and forth between them let me give you some provisional definitions of globalization one is by an historian named CA Bailey and he says globalization is quote a progressive increase in the scale of social processes from a local to a regional to a World level um then there's a sociologist named Sylvia Walby and she speaks of it as quote a process of increased density and frequency of international or Global interactions relative to local or national ones and then she fleshes out the definition by saying its causes are the increased power of global Capital markets the rise of new information and communication Technologies and the rise of a new heden which creates the condition for increased trade um I'm going to offer a different definition in a moment but notice that uh both these speak in terms of transcending uh the established boundaries and primarily the nation state because for the last two or 3 hundred years that has been uh the boundary problem and globalization is a means of transcending that incidentally there's great confusion between what's called world history some of you may have heard of that global history and now new global history let me bypass that that's a problem for historians so when I'm talking about globalization I'm basically talking about its present day phase which means post World War II and I think a number of factors came together in the 30 40 years after the end of World War II which has made for a new uh a new world in which we're existing which indeed needs to be called a global epic at this point so what are these factors first is the step into space think about it for a moment we don't really think very much about it but it's an absolutely extraordinary event in the history of the human species if a natural historian we're observing you know an animal that suddenly took off had wings they say it's another species we're the same species but we're entering upon a whole new stage and it gives us a perspective a vision of the earth which we'd only had before in our imagination now you can actually see spaceship earth so indeed for me globalization bottom line you know it's not just economic political social cultural it's all of those two it's a change in Consciousness and we're at the beginning of of that okay so you've got to step into space next you have the satellites and they make for instantaneous time space communication an enormous compression of time and space obviously it's been going on for the last two or three hundred years you can obviously think of telegraphs and railroads and this that and the other thing but this allows for instantaneous economic and other activity as you I'm sure know so the satellites nuclear that power transcends National boundaries and it does so by the way even peacefully we think of chern Chernobyl and it does of course in a military uh sense we've been lucky so far now from those satellites you see the Earth and you realize that the environmental problem transcends National boundaries so that's another Factor uh that we have to uh bear in mind those satellites again I don't want to hang it all on satellites facilitate the growth of the multinational corporations I mean it's a major feature of globalization some people think globalization is just economic and they say ah well there was as much foreign direct investment at the end of the 19th century by Britain as there is today that's so simplistic and uh lacking in a an idea of the whole uh which you have to have here but in any case we had a conference called mapping the multinational corporations and when we started by the way if I had a chalk I draw it this way that's the curve starting in 1600 Dutch and East India Company very slow growth and then suddenly explosion when we started in 1998 to give visual representation to these new leviathans there were about 53,000 when we finished in 2000 there were 63,000 in counting so you know their power is is is to be reckoned with definitely okay multinational another is of course the NGS and by the way the curve is best I can tell because when we've got a project now to map them is an identical curve although it starts much much later of course so you have to reckon with the NGS and then you have such factors as human rights World Music World architecture a whole host of other uh factors and without going in any detail on into them I want simply to say that have a Synergy and they are synchronistic in a way that we've never experienced before and therefore you have to look at globalization in a holistic manner um I said that it mainly this phase of globalization starts after World War II uh obviously the Cold War plays a role because you have two competing Powers each with its I wouldn't want to call it a global vision but certainly an international vision and you know uh that one of them is no longer on the stage okay so in trying to anticipate further questions let me just categorically make two or three points one is that globalization is not another word for Americanization that is one of the gross simplicities nor is it another word for imperialism not that both of these don't play a role obviously but at far far more complicated than just saying it's Americanization next globalization is not just Western in those multinational corporations I mentioned 25 years ago 30 years ago they were almost all European or American as of today 172 of them are Asian so that's Japan is pushing globalization as much and perhaps even more than the United States of America last point on globalization people talk about homogenization uh and again uh this ignores the fact that yes some homogeneization is taking place but so is heterogeneity so in all of these questions one has to ask how much homogenization where how Etc and the same thing with the imperialism and the Americanization so having rushed through the last 50 60 years and all of globalization I see a grin on Diane's face I I'm staying within time I trust um let me now say well all right how do we apply any of this to the city and you'll see that that curve I spoke of the mnc's NGS went up the curve of my knowledge will now go down um one of the projects we had in this initiative was um to look at globalization in the city there was a conference in St Petersburg question was was St Petersburg a global City uh how could it be one if it wanted to that got short circuited because the St Petersburg gians really don't want to be Global but that's that's another story okay globalization and the city hunter gatherers which is about 99% of the human species existence can be thought of as globalizing they were wandering across the globe I think that's a very shallow definition but it is one that's sometimes used and then of course as you know about 12,000 years ago um our species began to put down Roots uh in settlements agricultural settlements and therefore you have cities beginning of cities and with cities the beginning of what we have come to call civilization which by the way happens to be very very late neologism but that's another story there's a famous book perhaps Unknown by now called the ancient city by Fel the colong anybody ever heard of it well such as Fame fleeting um it was published in 1864 and he claims that the city is based on religion he's obviously thinking of the western civilization based basically on of of Rome um and that the founding of the city is in fact a religious act uh and it's important to bear that in mind he he goes on to say it was then enlarged by philosophy on one hand side the cosmop stoics and uh well the original Greek philosophers who then had a vision of cosmopolitanism uh and on the other hand of course Christianity which claimed to transcend the local religion if you will uh with this Universal uh one and that ended ancient Society for food the clage now with that in mind I want to run this little formula by you which is that the sacral idea of place which figures largely in discussions among Urban urbanists and Architects and such like I gather has been challenged by the conception of a value neutral mathematical uh space oriented space governed uh notion uh operating on mathematical principles and I you know I I warned against polarity it's kind of simple polarities but this one I think is is a fun it has possibilities here let me just read a quote from U DH Lawrence so I pay my dues to the people who believe in place rather than space uh in his studies in classic American literature which should be read by Everyone by the way uh especially now when as we all know Americans uh are nonviolent read read DH Lawrence but he says quote every continent has its own great spirit of place every people is polarized in some particular loc locality which is home the Homeland different places on the face of the Earth have different vital effluence different vibration difficult different different chemical exhalation different polarity with different Stars call it what you like but the spirit of place is a great reality now of course he's talking about continent we're going to be talking about history um collapsing an enormous Story one might argue that history is the story of increased urbanization from that start about 12,000 years ago uh um I'm going to jump to 1851 you may be familiar with all this material but let me present it when Great Britain had a census which showed that over half of its population was no longer living in rural circumstances but in urban circumstances and now this has become of course worldwide or Global it is estimated that by 2030 2third of the world's population will be Urban so it's a major major part of history now again as I'm sure you all know in the course of history cities have had different functions some have been mainly political some ecclesiastical or religious cultural commercial Trade Centers uh industrial a new entry in the uh late 18th century and now the question is uh are we entering upon a new form of the city which is Global obviously by the way all of these were in combination with one another in varying degrees but we're going to focus on on the global um first thing is to make a distinction if possible between the global and world or International city as you know in the 19th century Paris was always thought of as the the world uh City uh modern city I mean that's these two things go together in other words the last two 300 years can be characterized as modernity it's the way of thinking obviously here now the other word that comes immediately to mind uh today is mega cities so on one hand you've got the modern city or the international or world city and on the other side you've got something called a mega City now a city by the way whether it's world or Mega or what you will can be thought of as an alternative to the nation state I'm told for example in Zer which I know less about in fact than I do about Jerusalem that the second largest city there is far more important than the government I mean that's where the you know the economic and the political and everything else power may be so that's something to bear in mind well what makes for a global City uh if we're going to introduce that new idea is its size um there's a list of 30 global cities that has been put out by uh a research organization based on size uh Tokyo is at the top with about 22 million um I'm just going to pick one in the middle actually farther down which is Jakarta Jakarta is listed as a global City with 8.6 million uh people missing from that list by the way is Karachi I don't understand how they compile the list but Karachi has gone from 5 million in the the last 25 years to about 14 million but no one would think of calling Karachi a global city under the normal uh ways of thinking about it so where are we um I think what you have to uh reach for is what are the levels of globality for a global City now if I'm not mistaken you had Sask assassin talk to you and I'm sure you're familiar with with her work and as you know she identifies three Global cities um Tokyo London and New York and the main criteria is that as she puts it the more Global an economy becomes the higher a glomeration of central functions in a relatively few sites that's the global City so it's mainly financial services and what is attended to them and the networks uh that uh are aligned with them um I I Sask assassin's work by the way was pioneering it's enormously important but it does risk reducing the city to a mainly economic Affair and I think that's an error there are many types of global cities but let me touch on a few other ways of looking at a global City one is that advanced by uh Bill Mitchell uh here at MIT uh you I'm sure are familiar with his book book the city of bits and for him what you have are bits and spaces as against places and I won't you know go into any details of that but that's an alternative uh way of thinking of a global city um there is an interesting if I can find it um photographic exhibit this was in the paper just a few days ago there's a photographer named um Peter Bob rinsky and in his exhibit uh the New York Times had a coverage of it so let me read the relevant passages the urban centers in Mr Bela bazinsky pictures flow together into a single fictional city more real than Reality by the way the uh the prototype for him is the city in Blade Runner which most of you I hope have seen for cities are no longer singular places but nodes in the information network not a place but a process as Emanuel castells wrote and you've had castelia is that right yeah the mega cities of Southeast Asia exist in these images as a fantasy that makes no solid distinctions between Shanghai Hong Kong and koala Lumpa binski photographs put a radiant glamorous face on globalization and the invisible and Powerful Network that shapes our surroundings and virtually rules our lives that was the coverage of that exhibit now uh as you know if you go to these cities sometimes you have to pinch yourself to know which city am I in I mean they're like airport terminals now uh they're not completely distinctive place has given way in in the sense to uh that of of space all right um I'm going to conclude this part by suggesting to you that all cities are Global today they can't help but be because they're all affected by globalization so again it's what I'm suggesting we have to look at is what are the levels of globalization uh that uh are involved here because in fact the whole notion of global City is a social construct we've imagined it just as we imagined the nation and so forth that doesn't mean it's you know doesn't have a certain kind of reality uh but it's a special kind of reality all right upward and onward or maybe the other direction Jerusalem certainly I mean I've been to Jerusalem once long long long time ago conference on science and human values uh beautiful city but I didn't really learn anything much about it however I took seriously Diane's charge to me which was one this whole uh seminar of class is design oriented I accept that I can't say much about that she said one what is left to bind Urban societies if religion race class or Market becomes dysfunction two what conditions are necessary to establish a peaceful vibrant Jerusalem three how do we bypass the nation state now I found these very provocative which is why when she asked if I do this I said yes um so now I want to move so to speak in regard to Jerusalem from its being a holy city which it's always been to its becoming a global City uh and hopefully transcending the nation state in the process by the way that Tony Jud wrote an an article on Israel uh in the New York Review of Books which some of you may have read any case you would have certainly found it provocative in which he basically says that it's an an anachronism it's tempting to be a nation state well in fact it is a nation state no question about that uh but to operate as a nation state solely as an is State when we are in fact entering into a Global epic Global Society so that's something we can talk about um Diane also said be utopian or Visionary well I declin to be the first in fact I submitted an article as to why I don't think utopian thinking is the way to go but I do certainly think it's wonderful to be Visionary as long as you recognize that that's what you're being um Utopia generally means no place as you know it's not not to be real uh and it's static both in regard to how we see ourselves the self and of the society in which that self is to be found so I'm going to try and not be utopian but to be Visionary under the condition of a political situation which as best I can tell seems to be preventing globalization but not only globalization but a a piece and Harmony uh in the this particular spa place if you like but we'll hear more I'll be corrected on everything I say about Jerusalem I'm sure by I well I'm an historian by basic training so the one book I was able well there was a wasan book which I did read too but the one book I was able to get this is at the Library of Congress uh was by Ben Arya uh Jerusalem in the 19th century wonderful book by the way so I'm piggybacking on that at the one session I was able to come to Naomi Jason who's here now said Jerusalem is different from Western cities I don't know whether you remember you did say that well yes of course all cities are different Jerusalem may be special because I gather it was conquered 37 times that's a little unusual I approached Jerusalem in terms of modernity internationalism nationalism and imperialism I think those are the key words before you come upon it as in in global terms so my brief little synopsis not nothing original about it but I think it's worth remembering as benia tells me until about 1850 Jerusalem was a wall City that's the beginning of cities all cities they were walled and the taking down of walls is a sign of modernity I mean Paris was wall too there were many many other cities so okay um there were some modern houses outside that arose and therefore you now have to talk about a new and an old Jerusalem and I get very unsteady here modernity hit Jerusalem in the following ways around 1860 the first road was from Jaffa to Jerusalem giving a broader reach around the 1880s you have a railroad you have the introduction of banking hotels steam ships for the pilgrims who need a better transport Jerusalem is a tourist City to a large extent at this point um population that benar offers is that it goes from about 2,000 to 15,000 in 1914 and today it's up around over 600,000 so it's as with all cities population growth it hasn't got into those mega cities of course hopefully never will now the land for the new city was primarily bought from the Ottomans it was bought by fins Russians German Templars Protestants Catholics Orthodox Church you name it and they all buil hospices Charities and some of them introduced modern education so what we've got is a fairly typical picture of modernity hitting a city um now the new city became basically Jewish and I hope I don't offend anybody by saying that one could see this as a takeover and I think of course of uh and I'm not passing judgments here by the way I'm just simply trying to identify what I think happened if you look at Vienna or Budapest after 1867 you will see that uh when the Jews were allowed into Buddha PES and Vienna they to a certain extent took it over uh I mean the uh medical schools legal schools the culture etc etc uh out of all proportion to their numbers uh which of course as you might suspect gave rise to a great deal of anti-Semitism and to a reaction very unfortunate thing but it looks as if something almost similar obviously you know very different in the local was taking place in Jerusalem uh partly because of the Muslim Toleration Muslims were tolerant it's hard for us to remember that now um but um from the 2 Century to the 7th Jews were not allowed into Jerusalem when the moslims took it over in the 17th century Jews were allowed uh in um foreign Capital was allowed in um so it was because of this atmosphere if you like I'm simplifying obviously the Ottomans probably wanted to make money too and all the other things but uh what does strike one uh especially in the present day atmosphere is that the city was able to expand and the Jews to expand primarily because there was a certain amount of Tolerance uh we can look at that further okay um next inter nationalism one piece of modernity is of course the nation state in order for nation states to have any kind of uh adjudications and such like they we an international system was established in the 19th century in Europe and if you wanted to be civilized by the way you uh had to qualify for admission history of Japan is very very revealing in this this regard okay what is internationalism got to do with Jerusalem thumbnail sketch I gather the idea was first broached in 1841 why don't we internationalize the city Sur you know there were all these religions and groups and everything else uh it was revived again at the end of World War I but then it became a British mandate um there were some riots in the 1920s that story is told and then of course you have the UN coming in um uh which uh lasts until 1948 um and then uh this is a div I'm sorry comes in in 1948 you have a divided Jerusalem by the way that's my one personal take on this whole situation I was escorted on a tour of Jerusalem and my guide said to me you see 60 yards away that's where the Arabs were un troops were in between what did the UN troops do they simply let the Arabs come so I I got a a sense of why the Israelis do not trust the UN I mean that's just part of their history um in any case um after 1967 as you know the Israelis took over the uh the whole of uh Jerusalem although the Palestinian population uh is I don't know the figures you'll check me somewhere 30% but increasing maybe now it's closer to 50% uh their population has been going up much faster okay another piece of the puzzle nationalism well there are two nationalism obviously one is Zionism which had mixed feelings about Jerusalem it came something of a surprise to me U the Zionist intellectuals secular and so forth uh and the Arab which is another later development in many ways one has to remember that the city was a focus of nation building if you wanted to build a nation one way to do it was through the city and that runs through all of European history in the 19th century all right let me summarize here at the moment what you seem to have is a mixture of politics and religion in which as I read the story the politics is much more uh important uh much more there I mean it's the politics that push uh now I'm sorry to say a lot of support in much of History including present day history that religion is a means by which uh politics gets realized but that's short Circ in a large subject of probably not doing Justice to those who are are religous minded so what you're left with in Jerusalem are two policies the Israeli and the Arab and three religions because you know this this is the site for the three great monotheistic religions but Christianity effectively has vanished from the scene population is down to 2% so it says okay let me now bring it all together if I can what if we try and be Visionary as I was instructed to be um try and look at Jerusalem as a global City obviously not economically so I mean it's going to be tourist uh for a long time I suspect but let's Bear In Mind by the way another city in the region which is Mecca Mecca has claims to being a global City that Hajj uh brings together people in an extraordinary way it is a network uh with tremendous ramifications now that doesn't obtain for Jerusalem as best I can tell but it's something we could we could look at it so let's try and look at Jerusalem the way 19th century people had panoramas to look at their cities you know you stand out and you construct a panorama well what what what will we see if we take the global perspective and I realize how Visionary this is we now have to conceive of a shift from Jerusalem as primarily a sacral place to a value neutral mathematical space that is the space which we call virtual space well how do you do this and here I can only throw out some suggestions and I'm sure in the discussion I'll I'll be uh shown how they're so unrealistic that it's not worth going much further with it but let me let me let me try what would be needed is to build a networked Society above the existing Society well that think how we might do that one way is to donate computers one measure of a global City by the way is how many computers how many telephones and stuff do they have in there I don't know the figure for Jerusalem and how those computers are distributed among the population but it would seem to me it would be a good idea if you're going to try and go Global to get computers in there donate them because that's the only way that you might be able to create a public space uh it'll be an electronic public space but it it will be a public space uh next why not a shared Museum maybe there is one as I say I I just don't know but it would house uh Jewish and uh Islamic artifacts art and so forth and do we've played with the idea by the way how do you move from the Museum of Modern Art to a museum of global art and what would that mean we didn't get very far but it seems to me okay what you need is some very very wealthy individual who will endow this Museum and one of you will design it um and it will be above the existing Society the third is obviously architecture I've mentioned the museum but maybe there is all kinds of global architecture in Jerusalem again I haven't been there for 20 30 years and I maybe speaking out of ignorance but certainly architecture is one way of transcending the local place it's still local obviously it's got you know Global doesn't float up here everything is local uh when you talk about the global but in a particular way next a global University why not in other words have a university which will draw students from all over the globe now obviously you would want to have um strong Israeli and and uh Palestinian uh student body too but this would truly be a global University and that is not by the way so unrealistic um Singapore has declared itself a global Schoolhouse by the way they're moving toward that right but perhaps even more to the point is Central Asia you know those Kazakhstan those five Stans there is a very realistic project to establish a university three branches in those five count other words it would unite those five countries um the only thing standing in its way at the moment is a quarter of a million dollars well okay that might be what we need for the global University in the in Jerusalem um lastly because you see my vision Begins the cloud at this point I mentioned non-governmental organizations NOS as a key aspect of glob mization why can we not think in terms of an NGO or cluster of them which would convoke shared meetings of both the Israelis and the Palestinians which would Foster more of this dialogue that I mentioned is possible within the electronic Agora um okay now come back down to earth I I hope by the way some of you might be inspired to think of other ways of how do you transcend it but now the reality are the Israelis going to allow me to build my Global University to build my Global Museum I doubt it are the Palestinians going to allow me I doubt it I doubt it but that's the challenge in other words you have somehow or other to get across to the peoples involved and I know that I mean the religious people and best I can understand this are so entrenched they theyve still got a holy city I I do understand the reality so this may all be just an exercise uh of course but if there is to be the kind of hope that globalization might offer to the region then I think at some point you have to try to move from the holy city uh to a a global city of the kind I'm discussing thank [Applause] you get my glass of water yeah you want yours not immediately okay but lat thank you okay I was challenged okay by your presentation and I in order to appease Dian I will follow your presentation and then get to my subject in a way um and the you introduced very interesting ideas um both on your introduction um theoretical introduction and then uh getting to Earth with the vision uh I will relate perhaps later to the components of your vision and the items but first of all let me relate to the uh definitions or conceptions that you used um usually uh what we have or when we Define it is the global versus the local and is some kind of binic contradiction between the local and the global now thinking about Jerusalem at least we have three if not four components we have the international which I which I prefer to use rather than the uh Global uh expressed mainly by tourism and communication system as you you said um and this International profile of the city is inclusive because it brings in tourist from different sites communic by Communication System different people uh can uh communicate and so on and so forth the national is exclusive and the municipal is exclusive even further now we have to add to that because Jerusalem is also a municipal play place where people live and consume services and goods and and there is a trade and everything um now we have to add to that the religious Dimension and uh in Jerusalem it is uh in force because Jerusalem is a holy place now holy place by itself has has a Bic understanding or holy means Global but very limited Global uh it is greater than the local by its Holiness uh it has its meaning and message to the Believers of a certain religion but it is a very exclusive definition or concept very very exclusive it is Holy only to Muslims or Jews or Christians and uh Jews or Jews are forbidden to enter for example Mecca uh um in the Temple Mount Gentiles according to Judaism are not allowed to to H enter and so on so it's by itself it's Global only for the Believers but it's a very exclusive and the place is also very local and and exclusive it's it's a certain place so by definition a holy Place cannot be Global and Mecca it's it's Global only within the Islamic world only now and another another profile of Jerusalem uh which exist especially during the 20th century um it is the contradiction between plain Coast and harbor cities and the mountain cities so the Mediterranean typical Mediterranean city um a Harbor City like Beirut or Alexandria or hia or Jaffa Tel Aviv is completely different than Nablus or KRON or Jerusalem or Damascus um uh the cities on Hills uh they have completely different profile completely different history and holy cities um in the case of Palestine are to be found uh on the mountains it's a very typical to uh to have a holy city on the mountain and Temple Mount which geographically is not a mount but never mind it it is not by it is not by a mistake not by chance that Temple Mount is on a mount it it is part of the concept so this also something that we that limits the globalization of Jerusalem the possibility to turn it to be Global uh or International or uh and we have to bear it in our mind when we uh when we write down any Vision so uh this runs through the the modern history of the Middle East all around uh the I I know that geographers like to speak about the term of space uh I would rather use the term place and place in in as I see it is different than space because place is limited by a boundaries and borders uh and in Jerusalem and as in other cities uh that's not only Borders or boundaries but also Frontiers a frontier line my analyzes Jerusalem is a Frontier City uh it's not only mine perspective uh in the political geography Jerusalem is classified the same as the same category of divided City Frontier cities polarized cities um as Berlin nikosia um perhaps also and Belfast and and and others um we should bear in our mind that Jerusalem is in my view divided very deeply into two different cities uh the division is deeper than Belfast in my view um even deeper than Berlin even deeper deeper than Berlin because in Berlin the both sides shared the same history and same language therefore with the the with the fall of the Berlin Wall is was very difficult it was not very difficult to unite them uh in Jerusalem without the physical wall we have a deep deep division between the Arab City uh and the uh Jewish City uh I would like to to to to go through certain components of of Jerusalem and uh and uh relate to the way that these components were negotiated on formally and informally uh and and and then to open the the uh the the the the discussion but first okay let's see what we are speaking about and if you want I can put okay so if no let's turn it okay fine no mine mine not yours mine oh okay okay is it better that's good the cameraman you you have the say is it okay from your perspective okay uh what you what you can see here the uh the changes taking place from 67 to 97 um and uh it's remarkable to see the change change in population in the eastern city uh I won't go into details why it happened but the uh uh just let you know uh I apologize if Dian will give you some bibliography to read but I related to the to the development since 67 in my book Jerusalem the contested city in in what in conclusion the Israeli boom of of construction and tourism after the 67 War um brought about the uh expansion uh of the of the isan city they enjoyed it although it was not in purpose and was not pre-planned by the Israelis and to to to some extent it it went against the Israeli wishes and and and and and hopes um now the this is the old city here this is the Temple Mount this is the old old city and the jordanan city was very small something like like that this part was outside the Jordanian City and then Israel annexed and created by created the Jerusalem that we speak about and also the Palestinians speak about Jordanian as the Israelis defined after the 67 War H which which is much much greater than than uh the Jordanian Jerusalem and the uh Israeli Jerusalem Al together um but this is the term of reference this is our term of reference we don't have a different Palestinian definition of Jerusalem and so we have to relate to the Israeli borders when we speak on Jerusalem as a borders Municipal borders and we have to relate to the facts on the ground to see the uh Urban space and the the suburbs of and the the Palestinian uh building and the uh expansion of the city and I will I will show you in a moment how the city expanded outside the municipal boundaries it became the facto greater than it it was on on on on the maps so the city has some uh virtual borders as well but this at at the at the time of 67 the uh demographic balance between Jews and Arabs Israelis Palestinians was uh 75 roughly 75% Jews 25% Palestinians nowadays it's a 6832 uh for for a while at the uh at the '90s it was 7030 now it's 6832 68% Jews um so you you see you see that and and one cannot ignore when thinking on Jerusalem and vision uh uh one cannot ignore that um now let's move very quickly uh okay take this okay so you see the blue in blue there are the these are the Jewish uh neighborhoods the uh yellow the Palestinian ones and the municipal boundaries annexation boundaries goes here up this is this is ramala the Palestinian City goes up here the here the Israel hoped wants to have an inter International uh airport and uh therefore it once again this is the old city this is Haram Sharif and uh these are here new uh neighborhoods or set settlements according to the Palestinians uh built uh beyond the 67 borderline now what you can see here very Cut and Clear that the municipal boundaries Cuts Palestinian buildup areas here it was a very interesting socioeconomic and political process that brought about the H brought about that the borderline here became virtual Crossing sometimes one house or one room into two uh and actually what we speak now when we relate to Jerusalem is about two different cities and two different Metropolitan centers and I will relate to the Metropolitan Dimension shortly uh after this uh transparency but you can see uh what I would like to also to you to see is that the Palestinian continuity is from South North mainly the Israelis cross this road uh relatively lately in the late 80s uh by building this neighborhood but the Palestinians uh uh has here mainly uh South North while the Israelis can go here East West mainly and build up area in the east west uh ah another another very very important uh demographic uh data 10% of the Israeli population in a Israeli State lives Jews lives in Jerusalem 10% of the Palestinian population reside in Arab East Jerusalem so for each side 10% of its population is located here in this in in in this area in this metropolitan area uh 10% is is a data it's it's not 2% not 3% 10% and 10% even without the city being holy city it's a it's a data that no one can disregard no Nation no State no people can disregard and give up 10% of its population uh and the annexation is also problematic for Israel because Israel cannot digest onethird of the of of the city residents and turn them to be Israeli citizens or in other words to digest uh 10% of the Palestinian population and turn them to be Israelis and continue to claim that Jerusalem is the capital of the Jewish State and Jerusalem is a Jewish State one onethird of of of a city of non Israelis and non-jews means that de facto you have we have there in Jerusalem a be National City and the B national capital so it goes excellent excellently it's it's it's it's fantastic if the vision is the goal is to to have a b national state one state for two people but if if the view is division Independence and so on it it cannot continue it cannot continue and and the facto what matters is not the legal or personal status but what's going on on the ground and what's going on in on the ground as as I said is a deep division between East and West Jerusalem I will give you just few titles few items and you can read in much more on in the plenty of books that are on on on Modern Jerusalem but there is a whole set of primordial identity com issues that divide East and West like religion nationality history myth language and then you have a daily life division in the city you see here segregation in neighborhoods High segregation in neighborhoods no mixed neighborhoods you have different education system you have different transportation system allocated allocation of of budget Municipal and and National Services uh build in uh the Palestinians are deprived by the system and and this is buil in in the system different Communication System no mixed marriage at all a phenomen that we we we can see in any modern city in any Global City in any big city even in Belfast we cannot see it we don't have it in in Jerusalem at all we according to uh to the historical evidence the W the the word some mixed marriage were there during the British mandatory period not anymore now as far as I know very rarely there are social relationship between the two communities uh housing and building zoning status personal and Collective Status the Palestinians are not CI they are just permanent residents they are not citizens political institutions very very deep division goes and cuts Jerusalem into two and as I prefer to see this the situation that is here as two cities uh where their FA they their faces are towards their natural Hinterland and staying back to back not face to face especially at the time of this intifa especially to some extent it was so also in the first intifa in Barracks the intifa in Jerusalem both 8793 and this intifa is is different than the intifa in the rest of the uh of the occupied territories of West the West Bank but still the intifa is there and it divides the city actually on daily life and what we have here two different cities staying back to back there are some economic relationship I also I I wrote about that in my first chapter in Jerusalem the contested City I summed up the economic life of the of the city but it is in a way that okay I I I send my hand behind my back to the other side sometimes into his pocket uh and and this is the type of economic life and relationship between between the two the the two cities that's the way I I describe it graphically um but not face Toof face there is no no coordination and uh cooperation between between the two the two cities and the two entities okay now Jerusalem also became a metropolitan in a very uh daily definition and Metropolitan according to the geographers is defined where people consume goods and services or go to work in a in a in on a daily base to a city where they do not reside in they commute to the city from outside from suburbs from different cities and uh this happened to Jerusalem West and to eluts the or east Jerusalem each for its respective Hinterland since it was not so in 67 there were deadend cities divided physically and dead end and they became now centers for bigger Greater Community residing and I relate after Oslo from this area of bethleem up to up to ramala the whole area uh of the this Eastern side is related connected on a daily base commute consume in the uh here in this area of the city center the same goes for Israelis from here this going to H and to some extent the settlements now the the Israeli settlements enlarged the Israeli settlements in the occupied territories enlarged the uh the metropoline to the South to the East and to the north and this is this is a fact on the ground that everyone should relate to okay now I very shortly I I I will relate to the main components that uh that were this negotiated the The Point of Departure was Jerusalem as a metropolitan the concept was introduced by track 2 absorbed by track two by both Israeli and Palestinian participants and professionals I shared with you many Isa thank you for coming uh and was also introduced and and and used in the official negotiation now who rules the Metropolitan uh in all the models discussed none of them suggested Palestinian rule over the Metropolitan joint rule was suggested only by one model in track two and rejected by the Israeli negotiators prior to the finance the official negotiation therefore all the proposals and and and and track to uh this were on an Israeli overriding authorities in managing the Metropolitan I I I can go into details but I I will move just just to name the the the the issues the topics each of them can be uh for a different seminar division of Jerusalem physical division of Jerusalem uh sorry all the models uh except at the last stage of the official negotiation in taba ruled out any option of physical division between East and West Jerusalem Arab and and Jewish cities they it must both sides must accept that there will be two different borders international border and Municipal B border the debate was the alternative were uh where to put the borders the international and and the municipal where the the the the division line will run we need an international border we cannot live without international border in the city or around the city or outside the city at the the city entrance or the city's entrances because if we speak about two State solution not one state that's the sorry for not mentioning that it was the one the B National one state for two people was ruled out for from any track to or official negotiation both sides un are were unwilling to have an open City with no international border at most at its entrance from outside because because of two reasons one symbolic to to express nationalism to Express Independence to express statehood uh and it is it is important for both sides especially I assume for the Palestinians liberating themselves after many years of occupation and now having the right not to let me and israely in after so many years when I did not ask them whatsoever and I went in by car or by Tank or by helicopter and and and they could not say yes please come in or stay out now for them to have a roadblock and a checkpoint and stamp my Visa it is a very very important psychologically very very important expression of statehood and Independence there is also the security the security elements there are there are many we have many enough crazy people on both sides radicals uh and the many more radicals can come can come from abroad on pilgrimage or tourist and so on uh and each side is interested to supervise uh who get in and uh and and uh to across the border into his own territory so there is a need to have a checkpoint a border crossing as in any terminal airport terminal or seaport terminal this is a must now then the the debate is where to put it and there is a a a buildin dilemma if we put the international border outside the city it can be here between uh between for East Jerusalem and and Bethlehem or it can be in someplace in the on in the in the in the west okay then we divide the capital from its Hinterland it's a problem the capital has to serve the hinterland not to divide itself from the state the it's it's a it's a very very problematic stand for many years the concept of open city um ruled our mind I will show you uh the maps of Geneva where we change our mind in a way perhaps we liberated our mind or perhaps we occupied our mind with a counter concept of the dividing the city physically by international border but for many many years on both sides negotiators and and this is also a very interesting issue to to study we consumed absorbed the Israeli claim for the need to maintain Jerusalem as an open City and in my analysis the argument for open city was a code name for Israel annexation uh it took us many years to get free from this and and to bring up an idea of physical division between between the two cities now how to do it where to do it and so on this opens a a a variety of an questions and and answers uh another subject was uh or let's put it in in bar uh a concept which was re rejected on the threshold was a concept of citystate to turn both the Palestinian City and the Israeli city to have two city states with special authorities and empowerment by the states very beautiful professionally very very beautiful concept which no politician could accept no decision maker can can adjust and support only professionals fell in love in such a concept but when it comes to politicians especially city that is the two cities that um that will serve one is already a capital the other capital in in in in making it's impossible it's it's impossible but okay it is there on paper uh once we can we can go back to the to the concept umbrella municipality if we speak about Metropolitan then uh especially if we speak about Metropolitan ruled by Israel or over Israel enjoying overriding authorities automatically an umbrella municipality comes to the four uh there were several ideas how to build up an umbrella municipality in in which Israel in most of proposals Israel will enjoy overriding authorities it won't be joined and and and shared equally uh only on B abum maen document from 95 uh there was to some extend joint but not not 5050 division of of authorities uh therefore the the idea shifted from umbrella municipality to Coordinating Committee not not not to have an umbrella municipality but joint shared 50/50 parity of a Coordinating Committee for the two municipalities and two divided municipalities with full Authority for each over its uh its territory and in in in most of the of the papers um not not in the formal negotiation the formal negotiation in K David Israel refused to let the Palestinians have full Authority and power inside the The Old City O over the Palestinian neighborhoods in The Old City there were different versions and proposals uh at the last stage of negotiation and the the opening position of Israel in income David where that Palestinians will enjoy a full Authority and sovereignty only on the remote neighborhoods not in the uh in The Old City nor in the pal in the Palestinian neighborhoods adjacent to the Old City it was very problematic to introduce to the politicians uh the uh modern concepts of sovereignty the variety of sovereignty options that are open for them to use um but they were there all along the negotiations on paper uh presented to both decision makers by by by professionals um uh and like join sovereignty um divided sovereignty on certain locations postponing the this the the issue of sovereignty God's sovereignty no State sovereignty functional sovereignty residual sovereignty all these concept are well developed in in in in a legal uh in literature about legal uh aspects of sovereignty um they were rejected turned down by the politicians they want to know okay here is my house I am full Sovereign here and you are there that's it they know only the conservative uh uh concept of sovereignty and they are stick to this very very old we may say old fashioned of of sovereignty but uh but we cannot cannot argue with them that's very problematic regarding Haram Sharif Temple Mount at no stage uh of the official negotiation um nor in most of track two just in the recently in track two The Wailing Wall was included in the Haram Shar Temple Mount as one compound mostly the the when we spoke about the compound and and and and a Temple mount it excl it excluded The Wailing Wall although both in Judaism and Islam uh the whing wall is part and parcel of the compound in actually the Holiness of the Wailing Wall in Judaism andak in Islam comes from the uh the Temple Mount or alaa which is part of the Temple Mount so uh it was excluded and and and the the what was on stake was the uh K Sharif per se um Temple Mount without Wailing Wall um no track to as far as I could track back and follow track to uh no no track to paper uh in the Israeli side in the Israeli side allowed or suggested changing the uh the status quo in on Temple mount in favor of Israel especially by allowing the Jews the Israeli side to build up a a comp compound or synagogue a a prayer compound or a synagogue this was not suggested in any track to as far as I know however by the No No track 2 suggested to provide the Palestinians full Authority and power and sovereignty over State sovereignty on Temple mount in the Palestinian side I assume that all the uh all their track to in professional papers uh were on full sovereignty on um on on Temple Mount now there is another there was another concept which I don't have time to to introduce but it is a very very interesting concept which calls for a different long seminar is this is the concept of the Holy Basin it was it it was uh H it was introduced by by by Professionals in track to to take uh to take the old city plus some holy places adjacent to the to the to it and title it holy Basin and then to have a special regime for the holy Basin and there is a variety of options over open for the special regime for this special regime uh the concept was used okay or to be more precise let me say misused went to far extent against what was designed and aimed in track two it was misused by by the politicians who brought the the concept to the negotiation table I mean the Israelis and they use it in order to further base their stands and and and and policy to enjoy sovereignty on on or Sovereign power or or overriding Sovereign power there are different options on the area of the Holy Basin no uh I won't go into uh details um now let me show you the some uh how how Geneva related to this to this issues and I apologize that these uh transparencies are only in Hebrew sorry uh but I will do my my my best now you have here I will go from from H West you have here see the green green line is the 67 H is the 67 uh border but it marks the 67 border here uh okay the wall that Israel build wall and fences system that's the black in build in construction uh and the this is a this is the part that already built and here the the black will connect and this is a main road that Israel hopes to to maintain now you see that the this is the line of of shaon wall or the Israeli government wall and the blue here this is Geneva agreement map this is a settlement in the Israeli in the Israeli discourse it is greater Jerusalem but it is out inside Northwest Jerusalem uh now I will move this is an aial photo it's it's much better than the the map but also I have the map uh this uh here the Border will will be this is will be Palestine this is a a neighborhood settlement in Jerusalem this will be Palestine here all this Palestine this is a Jewish neighborhood settlement now we go here and then once once again here you have we have a road Junction that we planned how to let Israelis and Palestinians divide this road Junction and use each each side will use part of it um we have Technical Solutions here in this part we went out for a tour uh and and planned how to overcome technically and allow both both sides both States to continue to let the uh Jewish residents of this neighborhoods here to commute and and go to to to the west to West Jerusalem uh as usual as they do today the principle is let's take the principle that guided us is let's see how the city function how people people behave on a daily base where they go where they commute how they do it and then try to adjust ourselves to this and build on this and not not impose on the city uh too much that contradicts what's going on on daily life so if there is a division let's go ahead and with the division if people used to commute let's let them commute and the the division in in the city or between the two cities helped us a lot this is here this is malim settlement to be connected and annexed to Israel only by this by this road and and here to be Palestine this is not the plan of of the wall the will go all over here here it stops but then it will be built from here it will go by that and and cut the West Bank into two here we minimize the cut of uh of the West back as far as we can part up to here H or where we get the aial photo it's very very difficult to see but more or less up to here the road to this this settlement is in a tunnel so the cut is from here to here this this is the the portion of the West back that will be pH physically on the surface cut the continuation from south to North we we we decided we don't have it here uh I don't have it here in the map but we decided to maintain or to keep the old city of Jerusalem as an open City the the the walls help us um to suggest that and uh it was a very long and interesting debate among ourselves in Geneva team among each team the Palestinians have their own debate and we have our own debate and we exchange views the division was not between Israelis and Palestinian but inside I changed my mind several times and so on my my Palestinian colleagues um regarding the old city whether to go to a physical division even inside inside the old city or not how to face the the security problems that uh that we have in the old city in perhaps in in times of religious pilgrimage of Jews or Muslims and so on but in short The Old City within the wall will remain open sovereignty divided Jewish quarter under full Israeli sovereignty the three other Palestinian quarters Under full Palestinian sovereignty sovereignty marked on the ground marked on the ground and but but but but the old city will be will remain open now entrance to the city will be free the Israelis will enter freely from Three G gates the gates that look to the west to their Jerusalem the Palestinians will enter freely from their Gates looking to Palestine exit will be much more difficult a Palestinian could not exit through the Israeli gates in order to exit automatically in order to exit through Israeli Gates he show he must show V Visa or passport or any other document that both sides will decide on the same goes for the Israelis who wants to cross into Palestine or exit The Old City from a Palestinian Sovereign gate so the supervision will be through exit not entrance uh there will be an international Force inside which is another another issue uh to compromise to overcome problems when there is a clash between Israeli and Palestinian and and the two sides police are involved um but inside the old city free movement most of the time free movement I say most of the time because each side can unilaterally close its Sovereign area without any notice up to one week so if if the Israelis find out that there is a pilgrimage of millions of palestin of Muslims coming after Mecca and Medina coming to a Hajj small Hajj in in Jerusalem they can close their part physically up to a one week any extension of the period should be further noticed okay I know uh the same goes on for for the Palestinians um and and and so on now we are busy now in planning our next stage of negotiation of the Border system border regime border crossing where the checkpoints will be and and we have initial thoughts on that and drafts I would like just to say one one concluding remarks this proposal of a of Geneva of having a physical border which which on on to some extent is also open which is friendly for the users which which call to Crossing but but crossing under supervision with many gates with many gates and for different users uh I don't want to go to into details but plenty of gates uh this border can function this division can function only in the context of Peace of peace agreement final status agreement it's impossible to have it unilaterally in a time of a war in intifada and so on it won't work it is a precondition to have on the other side a partner otherwise it's impossible it is an urban space urban area and if there is a high level of animosity even without a minimum cooperation everything will collapse fall apart so this is a a limit to to perhaps this puts Geneva into a vision but but hopefully one day uh it will it will H materialize okay one most before you open the questions it is not the perfect it's not the idealistic solution and so on perhaps we we we must some change and so on it is not the best but it is the best that we could conclude on thank you thank you I'm sorry had I'm sorry we don't have like two days to talk about all these issues so but I do want to make sure that people get a chance to ask some questions I know it's going to be hard to go beyond 7:30 so I'm going to be real you know strict with questioning so maybe we'll start with start with two questions see how it goes and group some questions for both of our speakers so uh Di and Ys will be the first thank you very much presentation learned a great deal I I was struck I guess Above All Else by the multiple things that got ruled in and that got ruled out and in particular I was struck by the fact of what was not ruled in or was not even mentioned which was the basis of the legitimacy that you and your negotiating Partners brought to these conversations there was this sort of Manan track two that was ruling things out constantly who from what is derived the authority of of the track to um what is from from where do you derive your authority to make the kinds of deals uh that you're trying to make and uh would it be helpful for for us to have a a fuller sense of the the basis legitimacy for which all these uh all these decisions are being made yes youone ask your two we'll do two at a time for both both of the speakers I want to relate to to to Geneva at the end and to ask I think seeing the the map that just show us I think it's when you create in fact through this map more gated uh neighborhoods and more barriers that you will construct according to this we need millions of square meters of walls inside the city in order to divide it Etc in order to to to accomplish to achieve the the map that you presented I think Geneva accordingly Geneva is the worst thing that that anyone can wish for Palestinians and Jewish so I want to ask my question is in short through through Camp David and ending in Geneva what do you think the Palestinians lose through this process in terms of Jerusalem I the cont of okay okay so the the first question about legitimacy and Authority track to by definition uh get not legitimacy from a decision maker uh none of them were sent officially okay go ahead and officially here and there the decision maker and the national not not the local but the national decision maker uh roughly he knows about that okay sometimes uh sometimes he does not know sometimes he knows about dozens that simultaneously goes back and fourth uh for him it does not matter he can deny he's he does not oblige himself to accept these papers and and and so on now Geneva in a way is is is different by introducing bringing in politicians especially on this Palestinian side active politicians um involving also the Palestinian cabinet by by that behind the scenes and and and so on but the other track TOS very rarely the the decision maker uh uh was was obliged and and and part of now it happened that Jerusalem was a taboo to negotiate Jerusalem it was a taboo when but but both sides were obliged especially the Israeli side before for him it was a taboo and the uh the Israeli side did not prepare itself for the negotiation properly through state bureaucracy therefore it called the track two people to give them the paper to give them the data everything and here a a wide gate opened for track two people to insert their concept and and and and solutions and so on um regarding the is it is it is it quite okay now regard uh regarding your question it is not it it is not that worse if I perhaps if I would go into details about the Border regime and crossing and uh and show the gates where and how many for which purposes and and we will we will complete the negotiation on the an and so on you will see that it's not that worse but one data all in all all in all Geneva borderline is 425 kilometers that's it all in all in all the West Bank Gaza the West Bank the West Bank now uh the Israeli wall which you said that it is the worst the Israeli wall fences System including Mal and Kat AR it's nearon it's 785 kilom long which give you some give you some data to think about okay uh and the 67 borders there are 360 340 something something like that so it's not that far away um the Geneva annexation percentage of Terr of the West Bank and Gaza Strip annexed to Israel is 2% only so it's not that bad uh and and the uh one to one land swap in proportion including Jerusalem Jerusalem is included in the LW now what the Palestinians lose in the negotiation um up to taba not that much really not that much uh if you take the Israeli rtist arguments they they are just gaining getting more and more you sold out everything I face the argument okay and uh the criticism that comes from even uh so-called mainstream Israelis the Palestinians should get less than they they that the Barak offered them in Kim David so why you give them everything um the why I why I said that I can go into details about the the territorial negotiation and so on in each item and so the main problem is that as F husseini said we don't do not create facts on the ground we are the facts on the ground so they are the Palestinians form up effect on the ground and Israel has many many difficulties to adjust itself and to see the facts on the ground and this is all every negotiation in whether it be it in track two or track one is a process of Education you change your mind you change everything you do not you do not leave it as you entered in each side even the American side and it's a process of of education self-education education by the other side education by the media and and so on and we have to to see the facts on the ground and and and to to some of our Visions or each side has to say goodbye to some of its own visions and hopes and Messianic hopes and and ideologies and so on and to adjust itself to the to to the to the to the effects on the ground and also the Palestinians I must tell you even in Jerusalem some Palestinians prefer total open City others prefer full divided City even in in in The Old City uh and sometimes the division goes between the jerusalemites and the people in in ramala h the same regarding the Israelis some some of them cannot live with the idea that there will be a physical division in Jerusalem but the this by the same token they cannot live with the idea that there will be international border on the on at the Gates of Jerusalem to the West so how they can manage they they you must if you must face reality when you negotiate as on official talks or when you do an exercise like Geneva which say okay now we are mimicking as a real negotiators we want to do not to escape into principles it is very very easy to run away from reality into abstract principles many track tools were frightened by facing reality professionals frightened by facing reality and I I I include myself to to large extent most of the time and we were afraid to take some tough decision uh de political decisions and therefore we prefer to go to some generalities Visions abstract visions and so on in order to reach a very pragmatic and concrete proposal it happens to so also the Palestinian side go ahead I think we can we have un opportunity to makeal when we EMB together the idea that and it is center for the right of nationality ZM and thean nationality and upon that we worked hard to have this Mosaic picture of Jerusalem and we embraced the idea of the Open City and I think it was our Dream to see it uh true so that Jerusalem would be the son of of of the world but then you know the in came and they shattered this uh this dream and we started talking about the divided City but even as you talk about now Geneva and as we talk about different mods I personally live there and I see the situation we're more you know going into the hegemony of the Israeli system in even East Jerusalem looking into to the confiscation of lands and the expansion of the colonies with the w while you know you're going to have you know clusters of Palestinian slums here and there and then you know we don't have neither open City nor a divided City and then this is a recipe of more violence of more radicalism in the in the region so how do you perceive it how how we can stop you know I mean this reality it's more it's going towards more I can I want to to throw my question on here only we running late I have a feeling that was a very meany an important question I know it's going to be long and so maybe mine is not so much of a question but but a comment I wish it were a question but I'm not so sure there's an answer to it but what really struck me I want to bring Bruce back in as well because I think that um in some ways you you're talking on very different scales as you mentioned the very local and the Very Global but was what was directing to me is you both agreed essentially on one premise that was very troubling which is a global City can't be a holy city I mean you both basically both said that you use the notion of modernization so you have to move from the Sacred Space to this modern space and you responded by saying well we have to recognize that it's a holy city a can't be a global City but I still don't know why that is why it is that a holy city can't be why you can't have some elements of of of a well you did say that in your vision you said we want this Panorama to conceive of Jerusalem as moving from a Sacred Space to a mathematical all right okay but I mean you had an evolutionary idea of kind of movement forward which is you gave a long historical analysis of how wall cities religious cities moveed to these modern identities and um considering that Jerusalem is never not going to be a holy city why is it that we have to accept that distinction to be a holy city can't Global that's a different notion I think than International but maybe I I still need to know a little more about that okay you are right this is a subject for different study but I will follow Isa I fully agree with you I subscribe every word we have in just following your uh your note we have in Jerusalem two unequal sides not only uh that's okay one is occupier and one deprived uh but also two unequal sides in their nation building stage well the Palestinians just in the beginning of nation building stage especially through the city as you as you emphasize brilliantly therefore the powerful side should should withdraw I will use this this uh this concept in order to let the the other side the deprived to to to have its own space where it can build its own institutions exercise his State Building and then build on that perhaps one day we will reach cooperation otherwise I don't see it I don't see it now it is necessary for the Palestinian side to have this space it is necessary for the Israeli side to liberate itself from the psychology of emperor of the side who dominates the the Palestinian side and no coordination can emerge between even a a joint a parity Coordinating Committee between two municipalities unless the Israeli Jewish side educate itself okay the other side is equal in its status in its power and so on I I stop dictating him okay that's it 7 7:30 7:30 yeah it says see yes it is do you yourself I think I want to I I know I want thank everybody for your patience for going so long here and I hope to uh keep everybody on the mailing list if we have more events next year we continue to talk about Jerusalem and uh if we come up with a vision an alternative vision and another conversation we'll be sure to let you know if we solve the problem but I want to thank everybody for participating today and for hanging around for 7:30 and especially monum and Bruce for your presentations [Applause] you